DPS dispute ... Any advice / reasurance welcome

[jonnyfreedom]

Hi there, everyone here seems really helpful, so I am hoping someone might be able to reasure or offer advice on the following...

 

I rented a flat for 1 year for which the tenancy ended in June 08.

My deposit is being held by the DPS, and I am now in the early stages of the standard dispute..

 

Check-in documents stated that the flat had issues (cracked walls and frayed carpet) when we moved in.

Check-out documents state that the same issues existed + acceptable wear and tear when we moved out (plus stated that *generally* the place was in a better condition than before we moved in).

 

However, the landord, through the agents have refused since June to release our deposit.

After we left the landord has repainted the flat, and put a new carpet in and believes that we must pay £400 as a contribution (for any damage to the frayed carpet and wall damage).

 

We have argued that any further fraying of carpet, and wall cracks was general wear and tear, and have refered to the check-in and check-out documents which also states this.

 

However the landlord, through the (very slow) agent has maintained that we are 50% responsible and has refused to agree on releasing the deposit.

We are now in the early stages of a despute being handled by the DPS.

 

Does anyone have any advice or recomendations on how to handle this, or have any thoughts on our situation?

 

Specifically I would be very happy to hear any tips on what we should or shouldn't do going forward in order to gain a swift, favourable - but honest and fair response.

 

I believe we don't owe anything and that we are being treated unfairly, but sometimes one doubts oneself and needs other peoples opinions.

 

Any help greatfully recieved, many thanks,

J

Edited September 29, 2008 by jonnyfreedom
better presentation of thoughts

[MarshmallowMan]

Hi Johnny,

 

I'm no expert but thought I'd let you know we're having similar issues with our agency/landlord. What stage of the proceedings are you at?

 

We got fed up waiting for the agency to tell us what deductions they wanted to make - they keep asking us to 'contribute' for repairs that were carried out 4/5 weeks before we left the flat but we in no way our fault. we told them all along that there was no way we would pay but were happy to contest any deductions through ADR (dispute resolution service from DPS). They kept stalling and stalling when I asked for an exact figure so I filed a Statutory Declaration form to start the Single Claim process. This cost me £5 at a solicitors and I sent it registered post which cost another 4.50 but at least it forces them into action now.

 

From the sounds of it, I don't think they have any grounds for keeping any of your deposit in respect to the issues that were clearly stated in the first inventory you signed.

 

I get the feeling that the delaying tactics are deliberate int he hope you will give up, especially if youbadly need the money back. Stick to your guns and keep all your evidence as it will be needed at ADR stage. As I understand it, the burden of proof lies with the landlord/agency who have to provide precise details of the deductions they wish to make and why. From what I have rea they have to provide the entry and exit inventories also which in you case should really be 'case closed' I would have thought.

 

I'll let you know if anything develops at my end that may help you and if you could do the same that would be great. there's lots of info onthe DPS website about what to do if..... but not a lot of info about the nature/duration/content of each stage of dispute resolution.

 

Cheers and good luck

[jonnyfreedom]

What stage of the proceedings are you at?

 

Hi, Thanks for the reply.

Well currently we are waiting to recieve the initial evidence forms from the DPS. My Partner spoke to the Letting agency and they confirmed that they have submitted the initial form that states that they do want to deduct the money. So it's a waiting game ATM.

 

I had wanted to issue a money claim (via the online gov site), but I just havn't the time to organise it properly. And I wasn't sure if a counter-claim is ok to do whilst the DPS are supposed to be dealing with it (?).

 

I agree that the agents and LL try to drag things to try and wear people down into letting some of the money go. We were fortunate on this occassion that we didn't *need* the deposit back to re-invest in the place we moved to. Don't get me wrong, that cash would have been excellent, but we scraped by.

At least the interest is being added the whole time!

 

We had considered waiting about 20 years to claim it back in the hope that the Agents would be out of business and the DPS would not have been able to contact them, so by default we would have got our money back! But that idea seemed a bit far out.

 

Anyway, I'll keep you posted on developments.

[MarshmallowMan]

haha 20 years - your patience must be better than mine.

 

I've decided that I'm not going to make any more contact with the agency but let the DPS runthe show from here. As part of the Single Claim process it seems they contact the landlord to say we have demanded the money back as they are useless/non-committal/ambiguous/all of the above. Apparently, he then has 14 days to challenge this and if not, we get all the money back plus interest. I'm not sure what happens when and if he does challenge but I assume he'll have to do so with evidence and we'll have to do like you and send our own evidence.

 

I love the way we are asked for 'contributions' towards costs that are clearly nothing to do with us - trying to make themselves look like they are being concessionary and making a compromise. Bloody cheek!

 

By the way, have you asked if they will return all of the undisputed monies? I'm nearly sure when it goes to ADR, there has to be a specific disputed amount - ie. some/all of the deposit. E.g Deposit of say, £800, they want to keep £200/£400. You should ask for the undisputed sum of £400/£600 (plus interest) to be credited to your account.

I'm sure the DPS could advise - it's a start....

[jonnyfreedom]

Yes, actually we started the single claim process for the whole deposit. Before that, and in our attempted negotiations we were prepared to loose a small amount - not because we thought it was fair, but because we thought it might grease the wheels of the LL and angents into getting some cash for releasing the rest to us. But 4 months later the LL was still insiting he wanted £400. Part of the problem I think is that the LL is a bit *flexible* with his understanding of UK housing regulations and law... Untill I warned him (and despite the Agency being paid to manage the property) he would turn up at our door and want to walk around promising to do various things that never got done, and at the same time preach to us about how we should be married like he is! He was some sort of Jazz trumpet player from the west indies I believe, and had probably chewed on one to many mushrooms!!

 

Anyway its a good point to ask for the undisputed sum. Will look into it and let you know what the outcome is.

[MarshmallowMan]

Haha he sounds like he's been in the jungle too long alright.

 

Let me knwo what sort of stuff the DPS ask you for in terms of evidence as I assume the stage you are at is the one we'll be facing shortly.

 

I have plenty of correspondence etc to back our case up and will also use the facy that they have delayed and delayed to question their integrity too. I think they haven't a hope but like you, the longer these things are dragged out, you start to wonder if you're about to get screwed on a technicality.

 

I suppose if that happens I'll have to resort to a professional hit to satisfy my need for justice. Or maybe the A-Team.

 

Anyway, keep me posted and I'll do the same, hopefully in a few weeks we'll be sitting pretty with our deposits plus interest - with a self-satisfied glow from knowing the hassle was all worth it!

 

Have a good weekend.

[sarahj69]

I to am starting a claim to the DPS, i moved out in jan 09 the owners came in and inspected the property and apart from a few minor cleaning issues and a dvd unit in the spare room, they seem satisfied. IF i remember rightly the lady owner told me to treat the flat as if it was my own, so i didnt tell them i had virgin installed as it was already there, i had to routed to the spare room, so 2 holes were made.

But it 4 weeks later i got told they wanted to get a quote for the holes to be filled in, were talking cable holes, even i could fill them in. 4 weeks later im still waiting for a quote, but now they said the agency need to get their maintence guys in to do it, fine if they could get hold of the LL to get in there, another way of holding my deposit. Now it seems that we should of had an inspection the month we gave notice, but the agency didnt seem any point in it, but the LL wants compensation as they would of known then that the holes were there, another reason to delay things, but what the agency doesnt do shouldnt effect my deposit, im happy to pay the cost of the holes and cleaning, but oh no they just want to make things as difficult as possible causing unnessarary stress to everyone,

 

Im might counter claim and say that they rented a unfit property as the electrics blow and the electrian told us that it was a accident waiting to happen, see what they think of that,

 

Any advice would be great, i can see this going on for ever, and i wont stop, my agent gets me calling everyday to make sure she is doing her job properly,

 

Sarah

[findingthecheese]

Hi everyone!

 

I'm in the same position. My deposit is protected by the DPS but the agents/LL have failed to respond to my repayment request. They've also started to ignore my emails...

 

I am following your experiences with great interest as I might have to follow your lead!

 

ftc.

[AngelofSol]

I'd be interested in this as well. We're having to move things through the DPS to try to get even a portion of our deposit back... LL didn't initiate payment so we tried to, which of no surprise he disputed. We got and email and followed it's instructions (again the LL didn't do jack) and it took the deposit from the status of "In Dispute" back to "Awaiting Response from LL".

 

Has anyone dealt with this before? I was under the impression that if the two claims didn't match it would immediately kick off the dispute process?

 

It's already been over 21 days since we moved out and with our LL dragging his feet.... I'm just wondering... is there ANOTHER up to 14 day wait now for him to respond? Because at that time there's like another week to two weeks for him to gather his evidence... more time which passes by for him to fabricate stuff...

 

This is all taking so much time it's ridiculous.

[AngelofSol]

I'm also trying to get answers from the DPS regarding certain aspects and all I get back is a stupid form letter that doesn't answer anything and tells me what I already know.

[findingthecheese]

Hi Angel

 

I spoke to the DPS and they said that if the estate agents/LL refused to respond I'd have to initiate the single claims process and that once my claim was served on the LL they would have a further 14 days in which to respond. Which to me seems slightly unfair as they've already had almost a month in which to put together their facts and figures! It's a good job I wasn't relying on my deposit for my next flat - I'm sure the LL wouldn't have been this 'tardy' if it came to collecting his rent.......

[AngelofSol]

I hear you there FindingTheCheese... I've gotten all that explanation about the 14 day then file a single file and wait 14 more days... unfortunately this isn't our issue.

 

At 17 days after leaving the property we hadn't heard anything from the landlord. We go ahead and file for our deposit back... via joint, so the clock would start.

 

At day 18 landlord said he wants a completely unreasonable sum of money... with nothing in writing, no invoices, etc. we say no.

 

At day 21 landlord logs on to DPS site and sees that we've filed for part of our deposit back. LL says he doesn't agree.

 

Website says it's disputed and sends an email off to my husband. I write an email requesting that copies of all evidence submitted by LL be given to us as per their FAQ.

 

Hubby follows directions from email later that evening on website which is SUPPOSED to initate a dispute, however it reset the status to "Awaiting Response from LL".

 

This morning (after the thing was reset) I get a form letter back from DPS saying that the claim is awaiting response and not in dispute.

 

Rolling my eyes I write back asking why it was reset, how much time does the landlord have to respond this time... again, and how many times will it be reset before it goes to ADR. I also asked if I had to wait for it to be listed as "In Dispute" to send a request that copies of the landlords evidence be given to us, or if just asking the first time was good enough.

 

DPS sent back a form letter... the SAME for letter they had sent the first time which answered none of my questions.

 

I really don't want to sit down with this guy as unreasonable as he is and try to work this out... especially with all the bogus stuff he's trying to pin. These people just aren't reasonable.

 

To boot he was pretty much fine with the property until he brought in the letting agent to find him a new tenant (not manage the property he does that himself). They pointed out some things to him over a week later that they wanted him to see about. When we called the agent (who we let our current property from as well) they refused to explain anything and the little they did say was biased in his favor (which if they don't want to get involved why are they seemingly going on way or another at all).

 

So, I'm just frustrated all around that I'm not getting answers, especially from DPS.

[MarshmallowMan]

Hi both,

 

Firstly, it is a while ago since I went through all this but here's my advice for what it's worth. Finding the Cheese, stop dealing with your landlord/letting agency now and file a Single Claim form immediately. Keep all records of all correspondence you have had with your LL/LA - i.e to show that they are wasting your time and that you have had made reasonable attempts to resolve the dispute. Once you send in the Single Claim, then essentially your LL has 14 days either agree to pay you the money you have stated you are owed on the Single Claim form. Our LL waited until the 13th day to dispute - thus making making us wait a max amount of time. Once he does this, (I cannot remember the exact order of events) both parties have to submit their version of events BUT the burden of proof is on your LL i.e. he has to show documentary evidence that clearly shows why the deductions he wishes to make are necessary and fair. You will receive a copy of a summary of what the landlord has said is the case, and also what you have said. The process does take a while (and your LL will drag it out as long as possible in the hope that you will give up) BUT don't forget, once you instigate the Single Claim process, your LL will be forced to say how much of the deposit he wants to keep. This becomes the disputed sum that goes to ADR, the rest of your deposit will be released by the DPS within circa 7 days of the LL's response.

 

It took me over three months, a lot of stress and extra costs to get our deposit back but I got it ALL back, complte with a 4 page letter that was sent to both parties that basically said our LL was a time waster and that his case was a joke (in as much as legal peope can say such a thing.)

 

To be honest, I was so mad with our LL for all the stress and bull****, I went a bit Erin Brockovitch on his ass. I ended up submitting a 60 page document to the ADR process, our tenancy agreement, copies of all email correspondence relating to the leak which caused our dispute in the first place, letters i had sent requesting the deposit back, etc. I can't really advise on the merits of either of your cases but my advice is this:

 

1. Don't waste any more time speaking to your LL/LA, you're only delaying things more.

2. Follow the single claim process, get the undisputed amount back, then proceed to ADR for the rest.

3. You will receive all the documents and guidelines you need for each stage from the DPS - read these carefully and follow them, not what anyone else at the DPS or otherwise says over the phone. If you follow written instructions you have fallback if anything goes wrong. It is your responsibility to make sure you've followed the correct procedure.

4. Be patient, your LL is hoping you won't be.

 

Good luck, and just for future reference when dealing with any future LL/LA - conduct all business over the course of a tenancy via email or letter as the ADR process is all done by post and not in person over a table. If you have written proof of who said what and when it really helps. It also helps if you can show that you have really tried to resolve the dispute amicably first - then the LL looks guilty from the start if he hasn't responded in kind.

[findingthecheese]

Hi MarshmallowMan,

 

I'm glad to hear that you managed to get your deposit back in the end, good on you for fighting the dishonest low lives!

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your advice! Which I will now follow.

 

I've given the LA every chance to resolve this and have agreed to the check out inventory fee - they now seem to be ignoring my emails. The Single Claim form is obviously the way to go and I know I'm going to have to gear myself up for battle.... I was never late with my rent and left the flat in excellent condition, all bills have been paid and there is nothing outstanding (apart from the return of my deposit!).

 

Stress and bull**** here I come...!

 

I'll let you know the outcome.

 

ftc

[findingthecheese]

p.s. do you think it's worth making a formal complaint to the national association of estate agents? Or would I be wasting my time?

 

ftc.

[MarshmallowMan]

Good luck FTC,

 

When you send off your Single Claim form, don't forget to put in copy of all the correspondence between you and the LL/LA so that the DPS can see you are using the Signle Claim as a last resort. Also, from memory there is a specific number of days that must have passed before a Single Claim can be issued - just double-check that you have passed this date.

 

I 'm not sure whether it's worth your while complaining to the estate agent body, I'm not familiar with their processes but it'll probably just add extra stress to be honest. Sometimes in these cases its hard to know whether its the landlord or the estate agents that are being difficult but ultimately that is not your concern. The Single Claim process forces the LL/LA agents to state their exact position regarding how much they want to keep etc. At least then you can start to fight your case whereas if they are just ignoring you, you are just banging your head of a brick wall really.

 

Don't stress too much, I know it's difficult when you all you really want to do is go a bit Rambo in the Letting Agents office but just be positive and it is really satisfying when you are vindicated in the end.

[findingthecheese]

Hi MarshmallowMan

 

Can you believe they've just emailed me a response!!!! They want to deduct and additional £40 for a "large chrome pedal bin" that is not listed as missing on the check out inventory. It's like they just want to have the last word as an 'up yours'! I'm going to dispute the amount - I'm not paying for an item that was in the flat when I handed over the keys - if it's subsequently gone missing I can not be held liable. I've also asked for a copy of the final water utility bill as I now don't trust them one iota.

 

Funnily enough, I was thinking of paying them a visit - but thought better of it.

[findingthecheese]

Hi

 

The LA have now clarified that the £40 deduction is for a small 3litre chrome pedal bin that should have been in the bathroom (but wasn't there when I moved in and is not in the photographs). I didn't notice this on the check-in inventory so even though it's not in the photographs it is listed as being in the flat!!!!

 

Any ideas on where I stand re this item? £40 for a small bin is totally unreasonable - even John Lewis is selling the top brand for half this amount.

 

They're totally shameless, I've already disputed their bogus additional 'light cleaning' charges (I had the flat professionally cleaned), so it seems they're now trying it on with a bin.

 

It doesn't seem like a huge amount, but I work hard for my pennies and had to save hard to scrape together my deposit.

 

Any advice 'mallowMan???

 

Thanks

ftc

[AngelofSol]

Just another tenant here as you should know by now ... so don't take what I say as gospel, but I think that since it's on the check in inventory you are liable for it (even though you didn't notice it wasn't actually there). You could TRY to submit the photos as evidence that it wasn't there but I don't know how far that would get you.

 

What I think would be your better bet is to try to dispute it, but bring up other sites as evidence of what the bin should more likely cost... print out the adverts and use those... get atleast three at varying ranges (ie. a cheap one, a midrange one, and then a high end one) to show that what he's asking for it is over priced. Make sure you keep copies of what you find to send the the arbitrator if this goes to dispute and be sure to send them in as evidence. I would think this would be acceptable.

 

Regarding my situation, I have now been walked through someone at DPS as to how to get the deposit into ADR, which I have done on my end. The LL now only has to agree, which I suspect will happen this evening if he keeps up with his trends.

 

So, we'll see how it goes from there.

[MarshmallowMan]

Hi FTC,

 

I was in the middle of a reply to your earlier post but I'm afraid your new post does change things. If the bin is in the inventory and it was not there when you moved out, i'm afraid you will be liable for replacing it - it doesn't really matter if is wasn't there when you moved in as the onus is on you to check the inventory thorughly whenever you move in somewere. i have been burned by this before but it doesn't happen twice once you've learned.

 

That said, (and others may be better able to advise on the legalese here), you shouldn't have to pay for a new bin, simply the value of the bin at the time the tenancy ceased. Otherwise the landlord is improving his property at your expense and this is known as 'betterment'. I don't know how exactly they establish this value though and again, someone else on these forums might be better able to advise on that one.

 

If it were me, I would say to them that £40 for a bin is unreasonable considering prices you have checked out and provide examples of bin prices. Also tell them that you are not liable for a new bin as this would be betterment, etc. I would offer £15 toward the resolution of the bin issue and see what they say.

 

If they don't play ball then you need to get cracking with getting the majority of your deposit back at least and worry about the smaller sums later. If they start stalling again, i would write them an email something along the lines of:

 

While I dispute your claim to £40 for the bin and £xx for the light cleaning, it seems we are in agreement that the rest of my/our deposit (state £amount) is undisputed and should therefore be returned to me/us forthwith. If this is the case, please confirm that you are willing to complete a joint declaration to the DPS for the return of said undisputed sum. We are prepared to contest your claim on the disputed sum of £xx via the ADR process set out by the DPS scheme.

 

I think you will agree that you have had more than sufficient time since the end of the tenancy in order for you to assess the property and in order to avoid any further delay I would expect a response to this email within 48 hours. If no response is forthcoming, we will reluctantly be forced to contact the DPS and instigate the Single Claim Process to obtain the return of our full deposit."

 

Again, good luck with it all.

[findingthecheese]

Hi AngelofSol,

 

Thank you for your advice. I've disputed, strongly, and I have now gone online and collected 3 varying prices.

 

Good luck with getting your deposit back, from what I've read online quite a few LL have regretted letting things go as far as the ADR route!!! It sounds like you're well prepared.

 

ftc.

[findingthecheese]

MarshmallowMan,

 

Once again thank you for your assistance. You're absolutely correct, and I won't be making the same mistake again believe me!!!!

 

I will offer them £15 as per your advice.

 

I'll let you know the outcome!

 

Thanks again to both you and AngelofSol - your assistance has been invaluable.

 

ftc.

[findingthecheese]

Hi 'mallowMan & Angel!

 

We've settled at a tenner! You're both 'diamonds'!

 

Angel, don't forget to keep us updated on how you're getting on.

 

Good luck!

 

ftc.

[MarshmallowMan]

Nice one FTC, that worked out well then. Always good to hear it when it works out well in the end.

 

Good luck with yours Angel too.

[findingthecheese]

Hi 'mallowMan,

 

I think the tone of my emails were getting more and more feisty (thanks to your advice) and the LA/LL just felt it better to get rid of me!