Westminster PCN - motorcycle bay 'suspended' lots of people caught out

[dazed&confused]

I received a PCN for parking my scooter in a solo motorcyclist bay in Westminster on 17 Sept. Apparently the bay was 'suspended' from 17 Sept 2008.

 

I think this ticket is very unfair and is bordering on entrapment. There was a sign but I had just returned from a weeks holiday and this was the first day of the parking suspension and I just didn't notice it when I parked up in the morning. It's not like you look at the parking restrictions in the same parking bay that you use every single day. There was nothing on the road itself to indicate that the bay was suspended, no cones, no taped off area etc.

 

Since August motorcyclists have had to pay for parking in Westminster so to add insult to injury I've actually been ticketed for parking in a bay for which I've bought a monthly permit!

 

Consequently myself and at least six other motorcyclists all received tickets. I suspect it was many more than six as I tend to leave work when most commuters have left for the day. Bearing in mind that so many regular daily users of this parking bay, including myself, were caught out I think that would suggest that the signage wasn't sufficient to make people fully aware of the situation. I say this because the next day the bays were completely empty but only AFTER Westminster had made people fully aware of the suspension. Unfortunately this was done by way of issuing PCN's.

 

I also find it highly suspicious that I parked my scooter at 9:55am and the PCN was issued at 9:57am. I bet there was an enforcement officer lying in wait to issue PCN's to poor souls like myself who happen to have not seen the sign on the first day of parking suspension. I have no proof of course but it does strike me as rather suspicious.

 

Is there anything I can do?

 

I did notice that the PCN isn't signed by the Civil Enforcement Officer. Is that a requirement these days?

Edited September 24, 2008 by dazed&confused

[green_and_mean]

If you don't bother reading the signs how else are the Council meant to inform you of the restriction? There has been adjudication on suspended bays and the ruling was it is the drivers duty to check the signage each time they park. CEOs have to as part of their duties enforce every bay every day so its hardly likely they would miss your bike on the day the restriction started. There is no need for CEOs to sign a PCN as long as it has their officer number on it.

[lamma]

Council also has a duty to make signs clear. Its a two way street. If councils want people to obey the regs to the letter then they have to as well. It may decriminalised but it is still a legal process. Of course if councils did obey the regs then we wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of posts on this forum that we have would we.

[dazed&confused]

If you don't bother reading the signs how else are the Council meant to inform you of the restriction? T

 

Email, letter, text message (I pay for a permit so they have my contact details), some kind of sign on the road surface instead of seven foot in the air on the lamp post, bollards or tape to physically block off the suspended area, give a warning notice on the first day of the suspension instead of a PCN. There are lots of ways they could inform me.

 

Unfortunately those methods don't make the council money and PCN's most certainly do. Funny that isn't it. 15 x PCN's to motorcyclists who were unaware of the suspension and who've already paid through the nose for a parking permit generates somewhere between £900 - £1800 for Westminster council in a single day. Nice work if you can get it!

 

I park in that same motorcycle bay 5 days a week, 48 a weeks a year, and I pay for the privilege of doing so. Are you seriously suggesting I should make a point of reading the parking sign on each of the 210 days I park there each year?

Edited September 24, 2008 by dazed&confused

[Chesterexpress]

Email, letter, text message (I pay for a permit so they have my contact details)

 

I park in that same motorcycle bay 5 days a week, 48 a weeks a year, and I pay for the privilege of doing so. Are you seriously suggesting I should make a point of reading the parking sign on each of the 210 days I park there each year?

 

By the sound of your post it appears that you think you own that space and will no doubt complain if it is full and you can't park there. You pay for a parking permit, not for a specific bay. Therefore are they going to inform everyone each and everytime a bay is suspended? I don't think so. And in response to should you make a point of checking each time you park, then the answer is quite simply YES, it isn't rocket science and takes seconds.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Chesterexpress

[dazed&confused]

By the sound of your post it appears that you think you own that space and will no doubt complain if it is full and you can't park there. You pay for a parking permit, not for a specific bay. Therefore are they going to inform everyone each and everytime a bay is suspended? I don't think so. And in response to should you make a point of checking each time you park, then the answer is quite simply YES, it isn't rocket science and takes seconds.

 

It's not a specific space or bay as such, it’s a series of solo motorcycle parking areas, there's space for I'd say about 40 motorcycles. So no I don't think I 'own' the space. Motorcycle parking has always been free throughout London. Westminster have now broken ranks and started charging. The reason given was that they needed revenue to increase capacity to match increased demand. Therefore if I did find that I was unable to park after paying for my permit then yes, you bet I'd bloody complain about it! Would you not complain if you'd paid for a service only to find that service wasn't available? You make it sound as if that's in some way 'unreasonable' in which case why do we have things such as the trade descriptions act. And yes before you say it, I know services like parking are exempt from the TDA and that I'm paying for a 'permit' and not a space yadda, yadda, yadda..... Bottom line is you'd be paying for something and getting nowt and you can't expect people to be satisfied with that situation.

 

 

But I digress. The reason this series of parking areas is suspended is because Thames Water are digging up the entire road to replace the water mains. It's not like we're talking about a single parking space that has been taken out of action, it’s an entire street. Why is it unreasonable for the council to inform permit holders by email or text? My broadband supplier informs me of all outages via email, what is so different about parking? And why can they not cordon off the parking areas with tape or bollards? Why can they not put some kind of notice on the road surface instead of a sign 7 foot in the air? And more importantly, why, given that the street was completely empty the next day, can they not give warnings on first day of the suspension instead of dishing out PCNs?

 

As for checking the sign every time I park there. Oh purleease do me a favour. I suppose we should all check we're ship shape after we've had a pee. Have you never been caught with your flies undone?

 

I got a PCN because they're a huge money spinner for the council. It's as simple as that.

Edited September 24, 2008 by dazed&confused

[Chesterexpress]

I got a PCN because they're a huge money spinner for the council. It's as simple as that.

 

No you got a PCN for parking in a suspended bay. As for just giving warnings on the first day, that is ridiculous as bays are often suspended for just one day. According to Westminster Council, there are over 600 bays with parking for 6100 motorcycles. In my opinion you are still getting an extremely good deal by being able to park all day for 62.5p if you purchase an annual permit (going on your 5 days x 48 weeks). At the end of the day it is the motorists responsibilty as to where they park and that means checking the signs each and everytime.

[Guest Ting]

Not sure of my ground here but no doubt someone will correct me if needed. Do they need a temporary order to suspend the bay? If so you should ask to see it. Work may have started early, etc. - maybe?

 

Got pics of those signs?

 

Got an NtO yet? - cos Westminster's have flaws.

-

[green_and_mean]

Email, letter, text message (I pay for a permit so they have my contact details), some kind of sign on the road surface instead of seven foot in the air on the lamp post, bollards or tape to physically block off the suspended area, give a warning notice on the first day of the suspension instead of a PCN. There are lots of ways they could inform me.

I thought you had been away for a week, how do you know the sign was not errected a few days previous? Suspended signs are usually at least 30 cm square and bright yellow not exactly hard to miss.

[dazed&confused]

No you got a PCN for parking in a suspended bay.

No sh*t. Still doesn't alter the fact that the motivation for PCN's has moved from traffic control to revenue raising for local authorities.

 

According to Westminster Council, there are over 600 bays with parking for 6100 motorcycles. In my opinion you are still getting an extremely good deal by being able to park all day for 62.5p if you purchase an annual permit (going on your 5 days x 48 weeks).

And your point is?

 

As for just giving warnings on the first day, that is ridiculous as bays are often suspended for just one day.

Even if that was so they still could have used any of the other methods I mentioned to better inform permit holders. And if they REALLY wanted people not to park there they would cordon the area off.

 

At the end of the day it is the motorists responsibility as to where they park and that means checking the signs each and everytime.

 

I agree it's the motorists responsibility as to where they park but I also think the council have a responsibility to make motorists fully aware of restrictions and in this case that goes beyond putting up a sign seven foot off the ground.

 

As for checking the sign every time I park there. As I said before. I suppose we should all check we're ship shape after we've had a pee. Have you never been caught with your flies undone? I think it's unrealistic in a situation where someone has a permit and therefore parks in said place on a regular basis to read the sign EVERY single day. It's just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN and therefore, is tantamount to entrapment.

Edited September 24, 2008 by dazed&confused

[dazed&confused]

I thought you had been away for a week,

 

I had.

 

how do you know the sign was not errected a few days previous?

 

They may well of been

 

 

Suspended signs are usually at least 30 cm square and bright yellow not exactly hard to miss.

 

Really? So hard to miss that pretty much every regular daily user of those parking bays failed to spot them and got whacked with a £120 fine.

[dazed&confused]

Not sure of my ground here but no doubt someone will correct me if needed. Do they need a temporary order to suspend the bay? If so you should ask to see it. Work may have started early, etc. - maybe?

 

Got pics of those signs?

 

Got an NtO yet? - cos Westminster's have flaws.

-

 

Thanks for the advice Ting. I'll get some pics of the signs.

 

What's an NTO?

 

I've appealed informally to Westminster but I don't expect to get any joy going down that route. I'm weighing up whether to formally appeal. Obviously I'd need sufficient grounds. What they did was underhand and unfair but I'm not sure it was actually illegal unless I can unearth a technicality such as the temporary order you mentioned.

[green_and_mean]

Really? So hard to miss that pretty much every regular daily user of those parking bays failed to spot them and got whacked with a £120 fine.

 

Drivers are like sheep they see someone else parked and assume its safe to do so.

[dazed&confused]

Drivers are like sheep they see someone else parked and assume its safe to do so.

 

Perhaps they are, which rather proves my point. Signage alone, especially in this case did not give sufficient warning.

 

Besides, after parking in the same motorcycle bays for years, and now paying for the privilege, I think that assuming it's safe to park in said bays is a pretty fair assumption to make.

 

When you say 'drivers' I sense a little a bit of 'them and us' in your tone. Are you a parking warden or a militant environmentalist per chance?

[Chesterexpress]

Perhaps they are, which rather proves my point. Signage alone, especially in this case did not give sufficient warning.

 

The signage did give sufficient warning, you were just to complacent to bother checking the sign, hence you received a PCN. Stop whinging about it and just pay up and in future if you read the signs for where you park and follow the information given then you shouldn't receive any further FPN's. And for your information, I am both a car driver and motorcyclist, and yes I check signage each and everytime I park, hence no PCN's. It isn't rocket science, just plain old common sense.

[green_and_mean]

 

When you say 'drivers' I sense a little a bit of 'them and us' in your tone. Are you a parking warden or a militant environmentalist per chance?

 

 

I have driven in the past but now don't out of choice you are correct. But I have nothing against 'drivers' as such just those that constantly bleat on everytime they get caught speeding etc that its a money making [problem].

I have a season ticket on South West Trains but sadly they do not write, text or phone me everytime they carryout engineering works on my line and I have to check on a regular basis the trains are running you cannot expect people to do everything for you.

[dazed&confused]

The signage did give sufficient warning, you were just to complacent to bother checking the sign, hence you received a PCN. Stop whinging about it and just pay up and in future if you read the signs for where you park and follow the information given then you shouldn't receive any further FPN's. And for your information, I am both a car driver and motorcyclist, and yes I check signage each and everytime I park, hence no PCN's. It isn't rocket science, just plain old common sense.

 

Everyone who regularly uses those parking spaces was caught out and received a £120 therefore , in my view, signage alone, or at least the signage that they provided was not sufficient warning.

 

You are entitled to your view of course but I think you're just plain wrong.

 

As for "Stop whinging about it and just pay up". No I bl**dy well won't. It's not like I'm alone, most people in this country are ****ed off and frustrated with the draconian, overzealous and unfair parking enforcement we've seen in recent years. It is my right to appeal against it and that's what I'm going to do.

[Bookworm]

D&C, please don't rise to the bait, some people tend to have an agenda of their own.

 

I have asked someone to take a look at your thread who might be able to help with advice on signage and the like instead of pontificating on the supposed rights and wrong of the matter, but I am not sure whether he is around right now or not, so just hold on tight for now. ;-)

[dazed&confused]

What's with all the trolls on this forum anyway. I feel like I've walked into a bunch of self righteous parking wardens.

 

I actually find them quite amusing in a way but have people nothing better to do than attempt to rile people who've received PCN's? Meh, each to their own I suppose.

[dazed&confused]

D&C, please don't rise to the bait, some people tend to have an agenda of their own.

 

I have asked someone to take a look at your thread who might be able to help with advice on signage and the like instead of pontificating on the supposed rights and wrong of the matter, but I am not sure whether he is around right now or not, so just hold on tight for now. ;-)

 

Cheers bookworm. I thought that might be the case hence my post above (which I wrote and posted before I saw your message btw).

Edited September 25, 2008 by dazed&confused

[Bookworm]

Hey, don't tar us all with the same brush!!!

 

Listen, if no-one has come in to help within a couple of hours, hit the triangle on the side of your first post and ask if someone could come and have a look. I'll check on your thread when I get back.

 

Take care.

[dazed&confused]

Hey, don't tar us all with the same brush!!!

 

Sorry bookworm, that wasn't my intention at all!

 

I can see in amongst some of the baiting there's people genuinely trying to help others, for which I'm grateful.

 

Many Thanks

 

D&C

[green_and_mean]

As for "Stop whinging about it and just pay up". No I bl**dy well won't. It's not like I'm alone, most people in this country are ****ed off and frustrated with the draconian, overzealous and unfair parking enforcement we've seen in recent years. It is my right to appeal against it and that's what I'm going to do.

 

Good luck let us know how you get on!

 

for reference...

 

Christopher Alex Creagh Coen

Case No: 1950048283

PCN No: KC15021423

The appellant's evidence is that, having been away for a few days, he returned to his home road at about

10 pm on 9 March 1995. He lives at 11 Redcliffe Road. He parked outside No.7, and walked with his wife (who was 8½ months pregnant) to their home. A penalty charge notice was issued at 8.38 am the

following day, 10 March: and his vehicle was towed away shortly thereafter.

The Council's evidence is that a warning notice was put up on 3 March 1995, warning of a suspension of

the parking place outside Nos. 5-7 from 9 March. The sign was put up on a post -presumably above a

resident permit holders only sign - outside No.3. The appellant accepts that the sign was there, but he

says that he did not see it. Having parked outside No.7, he walked in the opposite direction from the

sign, to his home at No.11. He accepts that he was parked in a resident permit holders' place, during a

suspension.

The question I have to decide is whether the signing of the suspension was in the circumstances

reasonable. On the evidence, I find that it was and that, with reasonable care, the appellant ought to

have seen the large sign that the Council had erected. I appreciate that, at the relevant time, the

appellant was no doubt concerned about his pregnant wife's comfort, but this is a matter of mitigation

which I cannot take into account.

The appellant gives a second (but very much subsidiary) ground of appeal. He says that, on the

suspension warning notice, the date from which the suspension was to take effect (9 March) was in large

letters, and the date to which the suspension took place was in smaller letters. I do not find any merit in

this ground. The appellant did not, of course, see the sign at all. In any event, he parked in the place on

9 March. Further, the warning notice - understandably and, in my view, reasonably - emphasised the

date from which the suspension is to take effect.

In all of the circumstances, for the above reasons, I refuse this appeal.

[Chesterexpress]

D&C, please don't rise to the bait, some people tend to have an agenda of their own.

 

Bookworm, please step down off your high horse, no one who has posted on this appears to have an agenda as you like to call it. All I am saying is that the OP didn't bother to look at the parking sign showing the suspension of the bay, hence they received a PCN. Just because someone regularly parks in the same place frequently, does not take away there obligation to check signage etc. At the end of the day if motorists wish to avoid PCN's, then they need to check each and everytime they park and not take it for granted that it will be ok.