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    • 4 th time we've merged your threads  for complete history of your story please keeps to one thread
    • @dx100uk @ anyone else interested in Fighting HSBC UK  Staff/department non compliance and incompetence/interference in between HSBC UK and customers.   I wanted to know what you guys had to say about the reply i got from HSBC UK today.    Recap. I originally turned to HSBC UK to be reunited with Money i saved in accounts that where frozen and made dormant during the year 1995.   HSBC UK Teams tell me that HSBC UK only allows them to have access to account records dated back 6 years. there for they do not have the records, can not locate the records i requested for in my SAR. there for HSBC UK teams Ignored my SAR application for records of accounts made frozen and dormant during the year 1995. HSBC then claim if the accounts where closed they will no longer hold records of these accounts and tell that to the ICO. I again explained to HSBC UK and the ICO the records of accounts where left frozen and dormant.   HSBC UK teams continue to tell me over the phone that The records i requested for in my SAR, will not be located or do not exist because HSBC only allows them to have access to records of accounts dated back 6 years.    I returned to HSBC highlighting there is no such provision in the Data Protection Act.   HSBC UK teams today totally ignored my complaint again and confirmed with me they are classing my complaint as wanting to locate accounts that where closed.   Let me know what you think about the  HSBC UK teams response to my last complaint. Is there any other letters i can send them to confirm thay are not correct about what they have done.    The HSBC UK letter starts of by:You've been unable to recover funds you held in HSBC UK Accounts that were closed in 1994 to 1995, and to obtain the account details for the accounts concerned. You've been advised that we only retain records for up to 6 years, but you've been unable to locate any provision for this within the Data Protection Act (DPA). You require a Certificate of Destruction from HSBC UK to evidence the destruction of the data concerned. You feel your Subject Access Request (SAR) has been ignored by HSBC UK.   HSBC UK Teams now go on to explain: In respect of you being advised we only retain records for up to 6 years, but having been unable to locate any  provision for this within the Data Protection Act (DPA), I can confirm that under the DPA, we are obliged to only keep records for as long as we deem necessary, in order to effectively manage our data. So, for most cases, this will be for no more than 6 years.   In regards to your request for a Certificate of Destruction from HSBC UK to evidence the destruction of the data concerned, I regret that this isn't something that we can provide, as we don't keep records of when individual customer data was destroyed. I'd also like to clarify that if the accounts concerned were closed after becoming dormant, that we would have sent you closing statements at the time.   Lastly, I'm sorry you feel we've ignored your SAR. I want to assure you that we'll always look to accommodate a request for a SAR as best as we can. However, if we're unable to locate the account details and information required, this will mean we're unable to fulfil the request, which has unfortunately been the case on this occasion.   How else do you think i can highlight to HSBC that the teams dealing with My complaint, and request to be reunited with my money is not going to departments that can deal with my demand for services.?  
    • Hi   I have to agree if you have paid off the debt owed to them via this meter and are up to date on your bills  I would look at changing supplier and as said asking new supplier to install a standard meter and look for the best deals for you.
    • I have severe anxiety and going to leave my job and have been invited to a meeting but dont wish to attend that is three hours away from where I am. Can I legally give the  permission to decide without my being there? I cannot handle going as I know I'm going to be fired anyway as on my final warning. I'm also giving in my notice this week too! This job is just too much for me now and I cannot work here any longer. It's no good for my health and sanity  I am sick to my stomach thinking about going and about to hand my notice in anyway    
    • Thankyou it’s because I’m awaiting the outcome and a friend said I will be turned down as I asked them a while back if I had ppi on the account and how much it was and they replied.  But they did only send me a short confirmation with the amount and that they trust that answers my enquiry. i just wanted to be prepared if they wouldn’t turn me down based on that. Thanks for your advice on that mate 
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Dear Sir Moorcroft,

Re: Account number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Thank you for sending me what you have confirmed to be a true copy of the credit agreement that exist in relation to this account. As you have sent this document in response to my requests under Section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then this statement by you is now binding on you as per section 172 of the Act.

 

The document that you have supplied does not constitute a legally binding regulated agreement between us and is in breach of Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and is therefore unenforceable by virtue of Section 127 of the act. I am aware that Section 127 was repealed in the Consumer Credit Act 2006 but this is not retrospective and applies only to agreements signed after 6th April 2007.

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO THIS COMPANY OR ANY COMPANY YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT.

 

Furthermore, I dispute the legality of the debt until such a time as you can produce a satisfactory consumer credit agreement.

 

Furthermore, you are advised that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a properly executed credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

  • You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  • You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
  • You may not pass this account to any third party.
  • You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  • You may not issue a default notice related to this account.

I also requested that you remove any default registered with any credit reference agencies against this account as you are not permitted to default a disputed account. I further request that you confirm to me in writing that you have complied with my request. Failure do so may result in legal proceedings being taken against you to enforce the removal of this default and at such time you will need to explain why you have issued a default on an account that is not regulated under the consumer credit act.

 

The Data Protection Act

 

Please note: you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and you are advised that you are not entitled to refer this account to any third party and this includes but is not limited to any debt collection agency and credit reference agency.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’ you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

I look forward to your reply regarding this matter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Overdone


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Moorcroft Debt Recovery.

 

28 May 2009.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

We write in reference to your recently received letter and regret to advise that we are unable to comply with your request as we are no longer dealing with this account. For the avoidance of doubt you shouuld resubmit your request to the client.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mrs K Murray

Operational Support Advisor.

 

Does this mean they have chickened out?

Edited by overdone
typo

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At 10.15 this morning a man called claiming to represent Moorcroft. I was able to show him the above letter. He confirmed that he only got paid on commission and that he did have to pay his own petrol and he said it was a waste of everybodys' time. I signed one of his template cards to say I was disputing the whole of the debt.


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Moorcroft Debt Recovery.

 

28 May 2009.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

We write in reference to your recently received letter and regret to advise that we are unable to comply with your request as we are no longer dealing with this account. For the avoidance of doubt you shouuld resubmit your request to the client.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mrs K Murray

Operational Support Advisor.

 

Does this mean they have chickened out?

 

Yes it does look as though they have chickened out but Wescot are now hot on the trail. This is the debt that has been through Debt managers and Moorcroft.

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

13 August 2009

 

Barclaycard xxx xxxx xxxx 8009

 

This notice is issued for NON PAYMENT OF THE ABOVE DEBT.

 

Contact our Recovery Department on 0844 824 1153

ensuring that you quote your westcot reference number above. It will assist our debt counsellors if you have this notice when calling.

 

Failure to take the above action by 27 August 2009 may rsult in recovery by the following methods.

 

Westcot credit Services may instruct their solicitors to commence legal action in the county court. This may result in a judgement being recorded against you.

 

A debt collector may be instructed to visit your home and collect the debt personally.

Edited by overdone

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Time to brush off the "bemused" letter again.


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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

31/08/2009

 

Client Barclaycard

 

FINAL NOTICE.

 

Despite previous correspondence a balance still remains outstanding on the above debt.

 

Unless you make payment of £5,244.36 within the next 14 days a Claim Form/Summons may be lodged with Hull County Court or the local Sheriff Court for residents in Scotland and subsequently issued to you for payment of the outstanding balance plus all statatutory legal expenses, as follows:-

 

Amount Claimed

 

Legal Expenses

 

Total Amount

 

Payment Due Before: 14th September 2009


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Dear Sirs,

 

As you have previously been advised. This account is in dispute with the Original Creditor.

 

Until and unless you provide me with the document requested on (whenever), then it will remain disputed.

 

Your etc...


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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I know Wescot are a big bag of wind so I have been ignoring them. That letter was written on a big, fierce red piece of paper. Designed to scare one most probably. Beggar them. I am going straight to the Pre court Action Protocol letter and send it recorded delivery today.


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Barclayshark seem to be sending the same DCAs to you as they are to me but in a different sequence! LOL,Calders passed me straight to Wescott where as you got passed to moocroft and then Wescott! I wonder if Moocroft will be the next pond feeder they set on me!after Wescotts seen off,Though if wescott still persist in chasing e a complaint to OFT will be on its way :Dand a copy of susan Edwards letter!


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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I have to say that the very posh lady Wescott uses for delivering text messages is one of the few text messages that come out crystal clear! but i think i upset her as she stopped phonning me after my letter to them:D but now waiting to hear about their repsonse to my complaint to them as they sent a very polite letter to say they aare investigating my complaint! :D other people told me that Wescott are normally seen of after a couple of firm account in dispute letters!


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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I know Wescot are a big bag of wind so I have been ignoring them. That letter was written on a big, fierce red piece of paper. Designed to scare one most probably. Beggar them. I am going straight to the Pre court Action Protocol letter and send it recorded delivery today.

 

Oh yes, I had heard Wescott had let a few of their youngsters not yet back at school, loose with a can of paint :rolleyes::D


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Same kind letter for other Barclaycard Account.

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

09/09/2009

 

Client Barclaycard

 

FINAL NOTICE.

 

Despite previous correspondence a balance still remains outstanding on the above debt.

 

Unless you make payment of £5,025.32 within the next 14 days a Claim Form/Summons may be lodged with Hull County Court or the local Sheriff Court for residents in Scotland and subsequently issued to you for payment of the outstanding balance plus all statatutory legal expenses, as follows:-

 

Payment Due Before: 23rd September 2009


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Their reply. Pre Court Action Protocol Letter.

 

WESCOT.

 

Client Barclaycard.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Thank you for your recent contact with regard to the above account.

 

We acknowledge that you have raised a query on this account and we would like to confirm to you how this will be investigated.

 

What will Happen?

 

We will suspend all collection activity on the above account whilst the matter is under investigation. This means that we will not write to you, or telephone you in pursuit of the account whilst it is being investigated.

However, we may need to contact you if we require further details or wish to clarify any information that you have provided to us.

 

As our investigation of your query will require us to contact our client, this process may take several weeks. we would appreciate your patience during this time.

 

Upon concluding our investigation, we will contact you again.

 

What can you do?

 

If further information to help us investigate or resolve the query can be provided, we would be grateful. If you wish to contact us to discuss the matter, please telephone us on 0844 824 1153. Alternatively, you can write to us at the address shown above.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd


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Their reply. Pre Court Action Protocol Letter.

 

WESCOT.

 

Client Barclaycard.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Thank you for your recent contact with regard to the above account.

 

We acknowledge that you have raised a query on this account and we would like to confirm to you how this will be investigated.

 

Took them long enough to acknowledge there was one :rolleyes:

 

What will Happen?

 

We will suspend all collection activity on the above account whilst the matter is under investigation. This means that we will not write to you, or telephone you in pursuit of the account whilst it is being investigated.

However, we may need to contact you if we require further details or wish to clarify any information that you have provided to us.

 

As we know we should have done when you first advised us there was a dispute:rolleyes:

 

As our investigation of your query will require us to contact our client, this process may take several weeks. we would appreciate your patience during this time.

 

Do you really need to know what they are going to do.. just that they are going to bliddy well do it :D

 

Upon concluding our investigation, we will contact you again.

 

Neednt bother

 

What can you do?

 

If further information to help us investigate or resolve the query can be provided, we would be grateful. If you wish to contact us to discuss the matter, please telephone us on 0844 824 1153. Alternatively, you can write to us at the address shown above.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

 

Cheeky b*ggers, let them do their own dirty work. If they choose to take on accounts without the correct paperwork.... sheesh !!


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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i got a lettter and leaflet from wescott similar to yours after i sent them a firm account in dispute letter ,Its been quite a few week since i received it and not heard anything from them or BC yet, Hopefully that will be the last we both hear from Wescoot unless we get a letter saying it got passed back to original crediter!


Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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Same Letter again on second acc. Just different Dates. I forgot to included this acc number on Pre court action protocol letter too.

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

25/09/2009

 

Client Barclaycard

 

FINAL NOTICE.

 

Despite previous correspondence a balance still remains outstanding on the above debt.

 

Unless you make payment of £5,025.32 within the next 14 days a Claim Form/Summons may be lodged with Hull County Court or the local Sheriff Court for residents in Scotland and subsequently issued to you for payment of the outstanding balance plus all statatutory legal expenses, as follows:-

 

Payment Due Before: 9 October 2009


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Nelson Guest and Partners Solicitors.

P.O. Box 90

Sidcup

Kent

DA15 8LG

 

12 October 2009

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Re Barclaycard

 

REF: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

We are instructed by Westcot Credit Services Ltd on behalf of the above named client, in connection with the sum outstanding shown above.

 

Unless payment is made to Westcott Credit Services Ltd within 7 days of the date of this letter, legal proceedings for the recovery thereof may be commenced without further notice.

 

In the event of judgment being obtained, we shall seek all fixed costs and fees together with statutory interest on the outstanding balance.

 

Yours faithfully

 

S A Nelvin

Edited by overdone
add info

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So I sent the pre court action protocol letter too on the other account. Another letter today.

 

14/10/09

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

P O Box 137

Hull

HU2 8HF

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Client Barclaycard.

 

Further to our recent correspondence regarding the above account, passed to us for collection by our client, Barclaycard, we note from our records that the balance of £5,025.32 remains outstanding.

 

Our client is prepared to assist you in clearing this debt by offering you the opportunity to make a reduced settlement on the outstanding balance on very favourable terms.

 

What should you do?

 

To take advantage of this opportunity, please contact us now on 0844 824 1154

 

We can be contacted 7 days a week as follows:

 

This settlement offer is conditional on you contacting us within 10 days of the date of this letter. When contacting us, please quote the reference number above. We will be able to give you full details of this opportunity and advise you how payment can be made.

 

Please note that this offer is available for a limited period only.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd


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B/Card through their network of contacts in the DCA underworld, have really been on your case havent they.

 

If I recall, they havent provided a document that even in their wildest dreams could be called compliant :confused:

 

I wonder if something like the following could get the latest clowns to back off.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am sorry that Barclaycard have put you to the time and trouble to send these threatening letters.

 

Obviously you have not been advised by them that you are the ?th company/solicitor they have passed the account to.

 

Sadly, nothing has changed from the time B/Card first started playing pass the parcel with this account. There is still an unresolved dispute with them and unless you are a in a position to resolve it, I would suggest you return this account to them.

 

Yours, getting ever so slightly ticked off.


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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If I recall, they havent provided a document that even in their wildest dreams could be called compliant :confused:

Posts 13 and 15 are all they have sent me. Post 43 tells me why they think they are justified.


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Posts 13 and 15 are all they have sent me. Post 43 tells me why they think they are justified.

 

And the following tells them they are talking rubbish

 

from miss muppets thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/196114-miss-muppet-mbna-costs-7.html

 

BRW turned the original documents in post 35 and 37 into text format so it is easier to use

 

 

THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 - Sections 77 and 78

Summary

On request and when accompanied by £1, a consumer has the right to:

• a copy of their executed agreement

• any other document referred to in it

• a statement showing

- the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor

- the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the debtor but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due, and

- the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due. If the creditor is unable to give this information, he can state instead how the dates and amounts fall to be ascertained.

The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.

In our view a debt collector who has bought the debt is the ‘creditor’ and as such takes on the liabilities of section 77.

Under section 77(4), if the creditor is unable to provide this information, he is not entitled to enforce the debt while he remains in default (Decriminalised from 26 May 2008 on the coming into force of the CPRs).

Legal Argument

A copy of the executed agreement

 

Under the prescribed condition, section 77 of the Act requires the debtor to (Typo, she means Creditor I think) ‘...give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any)....‘. The ‘if any’ most naturally refers to the exception for agreements older than 1985 (Not sure this is correct, "if any" was inserted to cover Verbal Agreements).

Where a creditor receives a request to supply a copy of the executed agreement, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (‘1983 regs’) apply. Regulation 3(1) sets out the basic position that ‘every copy of an executed agreement... shall be a true copy’.

Regulation 3(2) goes on to concede that there may be omitted from this true copy various information such as details which are not required to be in the agreement by law: the signature box, signature (it should be noted that sub-ss 3-5 of section 127 do not apply to agreements entered into after 1 April 2007.A Court may then, for example, enforce unsigned agreements if it considers it is just to do so.) and date of signature. In our view the effect of Regulation 3(2) is that the creditor is only obliged to send out a generic copy of the agreement the debtor has signed up to. The creditor is not obliged to make an actual photocopy of the agreement.

However, the copy does have to be a ‘true copy’. This is a technical term, which has been discussed in a number of cases, mostly relating to bills of sale and the need to register a ‘true copy’ of the bill with the High Court. These cases come from the days before typewriters, when copies were made by hand. The consequences of filing a copy which was not a true copy were severe, since the bill would then be void and the creditor deprived of his security.

Meaning of ‘true copy’

 

In this context, the courts decided that a ‘true copy’ need not necessarily be an ‘exact copy,’ but it must be ‘so true that nobody reading it can by any possibility misunderstand it’ or be misled by it (In re Hewer ex parte Kahen (1882) LR 21 Ch.D. 871 at 875). The copy must contain ‘every material provision which is contained in the original’ (except that if the defect is made good by reading the document as a whole, the omission will not be fatal) (Court of Appeal in Burchell v Thompson [1920] 2 KB 80 at 98-99). Further, it is not sufficient for the copy merely ‘to state with complete accuracy in a summary form the effect of the stipulations contained in the original. It is not merely a document that is to state the true legal effect of the original; it is to be a copy of the original’ (per Atkin LJ in Burchell at 105).

Hewer, ex parte Kahen - the filed copy of the bill omitted the precise day of the month on which payment was to be made. The court held this was trivial, and no debtor would be misled by it.

Sharp v McHenry (1888 ) LR 38 Ch.D. 427- the copy contained blanks which were not in the original. The court decided that the blanks were unimportant, since the omitted words were not required for the original bill to be valid.

Burchell v Thompson [1920] 2 KB 80 - the copy failed to include the words ‘per annum’ after the interest rate of 55%. The reader of the copy would have to guess whether the interest was per annum, per month or something else but as one could sensibly assume, correctly, that it was per annum it was a true copy.

Commercial Credit Company of Canada Ltd v Fuiton [1923] AC 798 - suggested further that where there are a raft of smaller differences in a bill of exchange copy, this could prevent it being a true copy. However where the differences were such as to make the copy contract actually different to the original, the copy will not be true. Lord Sumner, speaking of the man who may wish to refer to the copy, concluded that ‘the Act promises him ... a true copy, not a puzzle. He is to inspect it, not to recover the original by a process of conjectural emendation’ (at 807).

Terms and Conditions

 

Regulation 7(1) of the 1983 Regs requires that a requested copy of an agreement which has been unilaterally varied under section 82(1) of the Act, shall be accompanied either by the latest notice of variation or a copy of the terms and conditions as varied. Regulation 7(2) extends the principle to copies of varied securities supplied either to the consumer or the surety.

Debt collectors as creditors

A consumer credit debt can be assigned in two ways: in law under the Law of Property Act 1925 or in equity but in practice we need to be concerned only with statutory assignments.

For a debt to be assigned in law, there are three conditions:

• the assignment must be absolute.

• the assignor must make the assignment in writing.

• express notice of the assignment must be given in writing to the debtor (see section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925).

 

The reason the debt is assigned is immaterial. For instance, books of loans may be sold on to be collected as an asset rather than as a discounted debt.

In some instances, the debt collector may have purchased a debt but not have the relevant agreement. Whilst, in general, ‘liabilities’ cannot be assigned there must be a question mark over whether ‘duties’ are the same. This is important since there is a rule, expressed in Tito v Waddell (No 2) [1977] Ch 106 at 289 to 302, that where a benefit is conditional upon some burden, the assignee must also take the burden. An example is where the contractor has the right to mine on condition that they pay compensation to those disrupted by the mining. If they assign their right to mine, the assignee takes this right subject to the duty to pay compensation.

Therefore, there is a strong argument that under the Act, the right to payment is never absolute. It is always subject to duties (many of which are imposed under the Act). For instance, the right to enforce the credit agreement at all is subject to the duty to comply with section 77 or 78. This duty is not a ‘liability’ as such under the credit agreement but is a condition of the right to repayment.

 

There has been a suggestion that debt collectors can avoid complying with section 77 and 78 by claiming that the agreement is no longer `live’ in some way as it has been ‘terminated’ based on section 103 of the Act. This talks of a ‘trader’ who was the creditor under a regulated agreement, implying that ‘trader’ is no longer a creditor once an agreement is ended. Section 103, however, deals with where the customer no longer owes any money at all and therefore it is correct to say that he is no longer a debtor and the trader is no longer his creditor. Where money is still owed, section 103 would not apply, since the consumer would not be entitled to a termination statement.

The first issue on when the debt collector becomes the creditor is relatively simple. Section 189(1) of the Act defines ‘creditor’ as ‘the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law.’

 

Where the debt collector is not acting as the creditor’s agent, or otherwise on his behalf, the only legal basis he can have for demanding payment from the debtor is if the creditor’s rights and duties have been assigned to him. Therefore we can be reasonably confident that a debt collector who has bought the debt is the ‘creditor’.

 

Unpalatable though section 77 and 78 may be for some creditors, if the debt collector is unable to prove the debt, they should be more careful about the debts they buy. They cannot complain that the sections are somehow unfair as it is in the Act and so must be complied with. It is up to them to ensure they purchase and maintain sufficient records to be able to prove the debt and comply with the other requirements of the Act.

 

Misleading statements to debtors

 

Sections 77 and 78 refer to supplying a copy of the ‘executed’ agreement within 12 working days of receiving a written request from the debtor. Failure to do so makes the agreement unenforceable against the debtor until a copy is provided. In addition, if the default continues for a period of 1 month the creditor is in breach of the Act.

Execution involves signing the agreement. If no agreement has been executed, it is impossible to supply a true copy of the agreement. Should a creditor supply a copy agreement, even though the debtor has never signed any agreement with that creditor, no indication should be given that it is a true copy or a copy of an executed agreement. To do so may contravene Regulation 5 of the CPRs and be an unfair or improper business practice.

 

The consequence of the debtor not having signed a credit agreement with the creditor is that the agreement is unenforceable except where the court orders that enforcement may take place. Where the agreement was made before 6th April 2007 the court is not able to make such an order unless the agreement was signed by the debtor.

 

Therefore it is misleading to state, when complying with a section 77 or 78 request, that the debtor has signed or would have signed (or similar) the enclosed agreement where the debtor has not done so. From 26 May 2008 such a statement will be a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs). Regulation 5 of the CPRs states that a commercial practice is a misleading action if it contains false information in relation to the main characteristics of the product (amongst other matters) and is likely therefore to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise. The product in question is the credit agreement and the main characteristics include the ‘execution of the product’ (Regulation 5(5)(d) of the CPRs).

Telling a consumer that he signed such an agreement is also a misleading statement about his rights and the risks he might face as covered by Regulation 5(4)(k) of the CPRs. It is our view that it is likely that a consumer will take a transactional decision to make a payment under the credit agreement or to refrain from exercising his rights under the agreement as a result of being misled about whether he signed it.

 

Breach of Regulation 5 of the CPRs is a criminal offence under Regulation 9 and can also be enforced under Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002. Under section 218A of the Enterprise Act, where an application for an Enforcement Order is made the court may require the Respondent ‘to provide evidence of the accuracy of any factual claim’ (such as a claim that a debtor has signed a credit agreement).

In addition, it should be noted that threats to take action that cannot be taken is listed as one of the factors that will be considered in assessing aggressive practices in Regulation 7(2) of the CPRs.

May 2008

 

Susan Edwards

Head of Credit Investigations and Enforcement, Office of Fair Trading

 

 


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Same Letter again on second acc. Just different Dates.I forgot to included this acc number on Pre court action protocol letter too.

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

 

25/09/2009

 

Client Barclaycard

 

FINAL NOTICE.

 

Despite previous correspondence a balance still remains outstanding on the above debt.

 

Unless you make payment of £5,025.32 within the next 14 days a Claim Form/Summons may be lodged with Hull County Court or the local Sheriff Court for residents in Scotland and subsequently issued to you for payment of the outstanding balance plus all statatutory legal expenses, as follows:-

 

Payment Due Before: 9 October 2009

After they rec the second Pre Court Action Protocol Letter, I got this today.

Their reply. Pre Court Action Protocol Letter.Number 2 Acc.

 

WESCOT.

 

Client Barclaycard.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Thank you for your recent contact with regard to the above account.

 

We acknowledge that you have raised a query on this account and we would like to confirm to you how this will be investigated.

 

What will Happen?

 

We will suspend all collection activity on the above account whilst the matter is under investigation. This means that we will not write to you, or telephone you in pursuit of the account whilst it is being investigated.

However, we may need to contact you if we require further details or wish to clarify any information that you have provided to us.

 

As our investigation of your query will require us to contact our client, this process may take several weeks. we would appreciate your patience during this time.

 

Upon concluding our investigation, we will contact you again.

 

What can you do?

 

If further information to help us investigate or resolve the query can be provided, we would be grateful. If you wish to contact us to discuss the matter, please telephone us on 0844 824 1153. Alternatively, you can write to us at the address shown above.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

__________________

Edited by overdone
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After they rec the second Pre Court Action Protocol Letter, I got this today.

Their reply. Pre Court Action Protocol Letter.

 

WESCOT.

 

Client Barclaycard.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Thank you for your recent contact with regard to the above account.

 

We acknowledge that you have raised a query on this account and we would like to confirm to you how this will be investigated.

 

What will Happen?

 

We will suspend all collection activity on the above account whilst the matter is under investigation. This means that we will not write to you, or telephone you in pursuit of the account whilst it is being investigated.

However, we may need to contact you if we require further details or wish to clarify any information that you have provided to us.

 

As our investigation of your query will require us to contact our client, this process may take several weeks. we would appreciate your patience during this time.

 

Upon concluding our investigation, we will contact you again.

 

What can you do?

 

If further information to help us investigate or resolve the query can be provided, we would be grateful. If you wish to contact us to discuss the matter, please telephone us on 0844 824 1153. Alternatively, you can write to us at the address shown above.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Wescot Credit Services Ltd

__________________

 

Cheeky sods, let them do their own leg work. They know they should have received the full details from B/Card.

 

And.... why should it take several weeks for their enqury ?... all they need to do is switch on their computer and type in your reference number.

 

Sheesh..................:-x


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Cheeky sods, let them do their own leg work. They know they should have received the full details from B/Card

Well, some DCA's take info you give them to make up a valid CCA. I am sure Wescot would not do such a thing.:rolleyes:


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Wescot

 

9 December 2009

 

Dear Sir,

 

Furhter to your recent enquiry regarding the above account.

 

The information you are requesting under the CCA 1974 is a subject access request. In order for this information to be sent to you, you need to contact Barclaycard direct on o845 xxxx xxx and they will require a payment of £10.00. They will send you the information requested.

 

I trust this clarifies the situation. (pre court action protocol?)

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Wescot Credit Services.

Edited by overdone
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