barclaycard Mercers.Offsetting Query.

[citizenB]

Despite post 21 above, debt managers have written again.

 

Account due to: Barclaycard

 

Client Ref

 

Our Ref XXXXXXXX

 

Amount to be Sued: £5192.xx

 

Your failure to respond to previous letters has resulted in your account being passed to this department for Court Action and our solicitors may prepare the Court Papers within seven days. If you wish to avoid legal action you must now pay in full today using the attached giro or you can phone and pay by Debit or Credit card or alternatively you must immediately telephone our legal manager on 0870 050 1046 who will try and instill you with our policy on institutional unreasonableness.

 

Supervisor

Court Department

 

 

Arrogant g*t... And how did Power2Contact and Credit Solutions get in on the act if Debt Managers are skelping for cash ???.

[citizenB]

You might want to pm someone like BRW, surfaceagentx20, scarlet pimpernel.. off the top of my head they are the "letter writers" that might be able to help out with this one.

 

My own reaction would be to copy the letter they sent you in post 21 and advise them to contact their legal manager on...... for a bit of their own advice.

[cashins]

you must immediately telephone our legal manager on 0870 050 1046 who will try and instill you with our policy on institutional unreasonableness.

 

 

 

You have to add that one to the things DCA's say thread!!!

 

Hmmmmmm....2, five syllable words, wonder where they copied them from.

[citizenB]

Alternatively as they have threatened you with legal action, you could amend the following letter, should give their legal manager something else to do.

 

 

I have had a look at CB's noble letter and have made a few tweaks for your consideration, as follows:

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re :

 

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 23rd October, this was received on 30th October 2008.

 

You have indicated that

a) You are giving Formal Notice that your client has instructed you to commence court proceedings against me without delay and

b) Papers are now being prepared for commencement of action through my local court to seek a judgement against me.

 

I am sure that you are aware that I have long since requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act) and the Data Protection Act 1998, a copy of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a signatory. To date this has not been provided to me and whilst I appreciate your client has endeavoured to persuade me that the provision of a copy of an application form is sufficient to discharge your client from further obligations under section 78 of the Act. Likewise I too have explained that the mere provision of a copy of an application form is not a legally permissable substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 of the Act and as prescribed by Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I am sure you are also aware that under section 78(6) of the Act, whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) they may not enforce the agreement.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing and your client's persistent, unexplained and willful refusal to supply a copy of the executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted ommisions under Regulation 3(2) excepted), your client has made plain its intention to begin legal proceedings against me. In consequence this matter may now be treated as one which is subject to the control of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Take notice therefore that under CPR Practice Direction - Protocols paragraph 4.6(a) and (d), I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

[1] A true copy of the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed and

[2] Any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied upon.

 

Please note that my request under the Practice Direction is not a request for production within the confines of the Act and Regulations but rather, it is for a copy of the executed agreement, including signatures and all such other notices, terms and conditions as will be relied upon in the event that your client shall begin a claim.

 

A copy of the documents I have requested should be supplied to me within 14 days and you are urged not to begin proceedings for a period of not less than 14 days following the supply of those documents to me.

 

Should your client elect to ignore my request under the Practice Direction and commence proceedings, it is likely that I shall repeat my request for the provision of documents under CPR 31.14. In the event that your client should fail to comply with my CPR 31.14 request, I will not hesitate in making an application to the court for an order that further proceedings upon the claim be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents, in the course of which application I will of course refer to this and previous requests for the provision of copy documents.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the time stated.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

One further point - has a default notice ever been served?

 

x20

[overdone]

"you must immediately telephone our legal manager on 0870 050 1046 who will try and instill you with our policy on institutional unreasonableness."

Cashins, In case you did not realise, that last bit was me. Guessing the underlying reason for them wanting me to call them. Corporate indoctrination is all they can pass on really, so any phone call is fruitless, from my point of view.

Edited December 19, 2008 by overdone
typo

[overdone]

Arrogant g*t... And how did Power2Contact and Credit Solutions get in on the act if Debt Managers are skelping for cash ???.

Just to recap. Both Barclaycard debts were transferred to seperate DCA's from Mercers. One went to Debt managers and on to Credit solutions. Now I'm guessing, both of the new DCA's are going to send me a swathe of terrorist letters. Any query I send seems to be acknowledged and then ignored. There is no logical thread to their letters in either case. I may write to them both again if I run out of important things to do in life. Post 15 shows the default letters I got from Mercers.

If I take Debt Managers latest, letter seriously, that would mean ignoring their previous one about acknowledging my complaint. If I respond though, I will use Citizen B's letter about court protocol. I am quite use to Debt Managers though. They get in on the act, realise their letters are useless and then clear off to annoy someone else more gulible. Now, as for Power2Contact, they will have to let me know if they prefer milk or cream, coffee or tea. We can have a good old chinwag about inadequate staff training of DCA's in general and what I consider my position to be. Up my sleeve, I know both acc's have unlawful charges and I can take my time to dispute amounts owed. Now, as a point of interest, do I prejudice my case, by asking them to be refunded?

Edited December 2, 2008 by overdone

[citizenB]

Cashins, In case you did not realise, that last bit was me. Guessing the underlying reason for them wanting me to call them. Corperate indoctrination is all they can pass on really, so any phone call is fruitless, from my point of view.

 

LOL, I too, didnt realise that was "added" as comment by yourself. Please note, I withdraw my comment in that case:oops:

 

I think if you ask for the charges back, you are kind of acknowledging the debt. I am not too certain about that though.

[cashins]

Cashins, In case you did not realise, that last bit was me. Guessing the underlying reason for them wanting me to call them. Corperate indoctrination is all they can pass on really, so any phone call is fruitless, from my point of view.

 

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

[overdone]

Post 12 by CB is the last letter I sent to Credit Solutions so I have photocopied it and sent a covering letter to show I aint moving. Rec.Delivery. This follows, yet another, slightly softer, template letter I got today from Credit solutions.

 

2nd December 2008

 

Dear Overdone,

 

We refer to our previous attempts to contact you and regret that you have not replied.

 

If you are experiencing financial difficulties, it is in your best interest to contact this office to arrange a suitable repayment schedule.

 

If you are in a position to pay a lump sum in the near future, we may be able to offer you a substantial discount for prompt settlement.

 

This is your final opportunity to resove this matter. If we do not hear from you within the next 48 hours, we will recommend more direct methods of recovery to our client.

 

If you want to talk to one of our telephone terrorists call blah blah blah!!!

 

No name, no signature. Just a paying in slip.

Edited December 12, 2008 by overdone
clarity

[overdone]

Likewise, Debt Managers seem to know they are stuffed.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Settlement Opportunity - up to 25% (discount available)

 

Your overdue account has been identified as qualifiying for a discount.

 

We have negotiated a range of special settlement terms with a number of our clients.

 

We are pleased to be able to offer you - without prejudice- a significant reduction.

 

Call us immediately to confirm the amount and the date you expect to make payment. A dishonoured cheque will make this offer void and the full balance becomes due immediately. Credit and Debit card payments will secure this offer on the day of your call.

 

Settlement of this overdue account may help to improve your financial status.

 

.......and the fairies come out at night and play at the bottom of my garden too.

[beachcomber60]

Subscribing - Have my own battle with Barclayshark!

[overdone]

Are these LBA's flawed? One from Credit Solutions and one from Debt Managers, both received today in the same post. Would it be appropriate now to send the letter in post 29 R.Del. to both of these irritating firms or need I add anything?

 

Credit Solutions Ltd, Surrey.

 

NOTICE OF LEGAL PROCEEDINGS.

 

The above debt remains outstanding. Failure to pay this debt or contact us within 7 days, may result in legal proceedings being issued you, which could result in one or more of the following:-

 

A COUNTY COURT JUDGEMENT

YOU PAYING COURT COSTS

YOUR POSSESSIONS BEING SEIZED

ATTACHMENT OF EARNINGS

 

Please call us on 020 xxx xxxxx

Quoting CSL Reference No xxxxxxxxx

 

For your security and to assist us in improving our service to you, we may record or monitor all calls to Credit Solutions Ltd.

 

.......and a bank giro slip is underneath

Edited December 16, 2008 by overdone

[overdone]

DEBT MANAGERS LTDDear Overdone,

 

NOTICE OF PROCEEDINGS - PURSUANT TO THE COUNTY COURTS ACT, 1984.

 

Despite our earlier correspondence relating to your debt due to Barclaycard in the sum of £519x.xx in relation to Debt Managers Reference xxxxxxx we have not received payment in respect of this debt.

 

We therefore give notice pursuant to the County Courts Act 1984, that proceedings to recover this debt, together with Solicitors fees and costs will be instigated immediately in the Rotherham County Court.

 

Details of any judgments obtained in relation to this debt may be supplied to credit referencing organisations and may impede your ability to obtain credit in the future.

 

Should you wish to avoid this action IMMEDIATE payment of the full outstanding sum of £519x.xx should be made to Debt Managers Limited and sent to the above address. The reference number xxxxx should be quoted in all correspondence.

 

Should you have any queries relating to this matter or an altrnative method of payment, telephone our Recoveries Department on 08000 000 000.

Client Ref XXXXXXXX

Edited April 16, 2009 by overdone
crafting details.

[citizenB]

Are these LBA's flawed? One from Credit Solutions and one from Debt Managers, both received today in the same post. Would it be appropriate now to send the letter in post 29 R.Del. to both of these irritating firms or need I add anything?

 

Credit Solutions Ltd, Surrey.

 

NOTICE OF LEGAL PROCEEDINGS.

 

The above debt remains outstanding. Failure to pay this debt or contact us within 7 days, may result in legal proceedings being issued you, which could result in one or more of the following:-

 

A COUNTY COURT JUDGEMENT

YOU PAYING COURT COSTS

YOUR POSSESSIONS BEING SEIZED

ATTACHMENT OF EARNINGS

 

Please call us on 020 xxx xxxxx

Quoting CSL Reference No xxxxxxxxx

 

For your security and to assist us in improving our service to you, we may record or monitor all calls to Credit Solutions Ltd.

 

.......and a bank giro slip is underneath

 

Yep, get the letter in post 29 out ASAP..Send it special delivery and wreck THEIR christmas

[overdone]

I did them both yesterday recorded delivery but I have never understood why these letters should be devastating to a DCA. BRW also feels that SAR has the same effect. Can someone explain why as I have never had to go this far with a DCA. The CCA request usually stumps them.

[cashins]

Are these LBA's flawed?

 

An LBA is usually expected to give 14 days warning.

 

David

[overdone]

An LBA is usually expected to give 14 days warning.

 

David

Well I don't think they are serious LBA's but they should know how to make an LBA look the real thing even, if it is only meant to scare. My letters are the real thing though.

[overdone]

I had a reply to post 16 I think. Seems like a template letter.

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Reference Section 78 of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Barclaycard Account No's xxxxxxxx & xxxxxxxxxx

 

I write further to the letter whereby you note dissatisfaction to the documents you received in relation to a request made under Section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Firstly, credit cards are regulated under Section 78. Section 78(1) of the Act states that the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. Regarding a statement of account which is practicable to refer, the letters which we send in response to a Section 78 (1) request includes this information. To cover the issue of executed agreement.

 

How does the Act define an "executed agreement"?

 

"Executed agreement" is defined in section 189 of the Act as, "a document, signed by or on behalf of the parties, embodying the terms of a regulated agreement...."

 

What do the rules say about providing a copy?

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 ("The Regulations") made under the Act deal with how we are to provide a "copy" of an agreement. These Regulations provide that any copy of the agreement supplied to a debtor should be a "True" copy. Regulation 3(2) provides that a copy may omit certain information, which allows you to be provided with a true copy, not a complete copy.

 

What happens if the original agreement has been varied since it was originally signed?

 

The regulations also set out what should happen where the agreement has been varied since it was signed. Regulation 7 provides creditors with a choice of including in the copy of the executed agreement either a copy of the latest notice of variation relating to each discrete term which has been varied, or an easily legible statement of the terms varied. Regulation 7 does not state that the copy of the agreement shall include a statement of the original terms as well as a statement of the varied terms. Regulation 7 allows us to provide you with a "True Copy" which sets out the terms and conditions current at the time of provision of the copy.

 

Conclusions in relation to the document we have to provide.

 

A "copy" of an agreement will satisfy the requirements even if the signature box and/or the signatures are not included as clarified by regulation 3(2) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

The definition of "executed agreement" refers to a document embodying the terms of the regulated agreement. When this is read with Regulation 7 - for agreements that have been varied - a copy of the original agreement would not embody its terms. A copy of the agreement as varied would embody its terms.

 

The issue of what is an executed agreement has been interpreted in the High Court. It was held that an executed agreement begins as the credit agreement which is sent to the cardholder when they recieve their credit card: therefore, establishing what is the original executed agreement. When the agreement has been varied, Regulation 7 mentioned above applies.

 

To summarise, if the agreement has not been varied, we must send the original executed agreement: this would be the credit agreement which is currently regulated. If the credit agreement has been varied, we must send the current credit agreement as this will contain the terms of the regulated agreement. We have sent you this and the original executed agreement for reference.

 

I hope this letter has helped with your concerns about the documents you have been supplied with under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. As our response fulfils the obligation under section 78 of the consumer Credit Act 1974, you should carry on paying the debt you have accrued on your account. We do not class the account as in dispute, you have been supplied with the relevant documentation under Section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974, and we will carry on with collection services.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Colin Sefton

 

Court Orders and Disclosures

Legal Regulatory Compliance

Edited December 20, 2008 by overdone

[cashins]

I had a reply to post 16 I think. Seems like a template letter.

 

 

It is.

 

No company ever admits that the account is in dispute and they will tell you that they have complied even if the version they have sent you is in Swahili.

 

The account is in dispute and you have told them that.

 

David

[overdone]

Thanks for that. So I need not write back to Barclays. Just wait to hear what the two DCA's, Debt Managers and Credit Solutions, do with the pre court procedure?

Edited January 7, 2009 by overdone
clarity

[citizenB]

I did them both yesterday recorded delivery but I have never understood why these letters should be devastating to a DCA. BRW also feels that Subject Access Request has the same effect. Can someone explain why as I have never had to go this far with a DCA. The CCA request usually stumps them.

 

 

It lets them know you are on to their little game of intimidation. They are well aware as are B/card with all their posturing, that they will have to provide an original if they proceed to litigation.

 

They are also being made aware that they have bought a disputed account and that you wont be making it easy for them to collect on it:grin:

[tosh1]

Hi Overdone

 

I got the exact same responce from BC as you.

 

I am in the process of sending a reply (something like the one below)

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 21/01/09

 

Regards

[overdone]

Russel + Aitken

Solicitors

Debt Recovery

27 Rutland Square

Edinburgh,

EH1 2BU

 

18 December 2008,

 

Dear Sir,

 

Creditor Barclaycard

Ref XXXXXXXX

Bal Due £519X.XX

 

We write to advise that we have received instructions from Debt Managers Ltd to proceed with immediate Court action in respect of your account. It is our intention to issue county court proceedings for non payment of the above account.

 

We are sure you will wish to avoid this action bearing in mind the extra expenses and the fact that your credit rating could be seriously affected.

 

We are therefore writing to you in advance of a County Court Claim to give you a final opportunity to contact Debt managers Ltd immediately if you want to avoid the action referred to. You may telephone them on 0870 050 1046. It should also be noted that if you are in a position to pay in full a discount for immediate settlement may be considered.

 

Yours faithfully

Litigation Department.

[tosh1]

Hi Overdone

 

I don't think they have the paperwork. Have you requested a SAR from them yet?

 

Tosh1

[overdone]

Hi Overdone

 

I don't think they have the paperwork. Have you requested a Subject Access Request from them yet?

 

Tosh1

No. Too dear. But Debt managers are hot off the mark. An acknowledgement of my pre court protocol request.

 

22 December 2008

 

Dear Overdone,

 

Pursuer. Barclaycard

Ref No. xxxxxxxxxx

Balance £5,19x.xx

We refer to your recent correspondence. We can confirm we are witholding action on this account whilst our client investigates your complaint, we have been advised that this may take 6-8 weeks.

 

Debt Managers.

 

 

I thought Subject Access Request and pre court protocol ammounted to the same thing.

Edited January 7, 2009 by overdone
clarity