Help I am being defrauded! ebay phone debacle

[richthegill]

I wonder if you could help me.

In July I sold a phone on Ebay and the bidder had 0 feedback. Before the auction ended I contacted the buyer asking him if he had the funds in place to purchase due to his feedback. He confirmed this was all ok.

At the end of the auction the buyer paid for the item through paypal (the same email address as the ebay account) , and I sent the phone recorded delivery which was confirmed by royal mail online as delivered 2 days later signed by the person who bought the item. ( the same name on the paypal account signed for the package)

6 weeks later paypal have informed me that the buyer had issued a chargeback against me stating his card had been used without authorisation despite all the details pointing to a legal transaction. This has left me out of pocket and without the phone.

I am convinced I am being defrauded and although Paypal are arguing my point with the card issuer they have already taken the money back leaving my account in negative balance and I am not convinced I will get the money back.

Would it be worth getting all the details together and going to the police, or is there something else I can do.

Many Thanks

[skyelet]

we have had a similar experience with paypal although in this case the buyer has just used chargeback and said the item wasnt delivered. it was an e-item and delivery was recorded by way of email, yet paypal are now chasing us for the £300 that the buyer has charged back...

 

it all seems a big con to me

[Chesterexpress]

skyelet an e-item costing £300? Would be most interested in knowing what that would be.

[raydetinu]

If paid by paypal, he would have had to press the button authorising payment so dont see how paypal charged you?

[legalpickle]

If paid by paypal, he would have had to press the button authorising payment so dont see how paypal charged you?

This is an illogical response! I press authorize on many purchases, but if the item or service isn't provided, I chargeback.

 

To the OP:

 

This is very common with Paypal. It happened twice to a friend. What I recommend is this:

1. Draft a letter - post it here excluding any personal information and I will try and proof it for you - to Paypal, which you'll send special delivery.

2. Within 8 weeks Paypal will either respond refusing to refund you or not send anything, so you'll fill in a form from the Financial Ombudsman Service [http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk].

3. Paypal may offer to settle at the start, alternatively, it will get allocated to an Adjudicator, where you're - from my experience - likely to get a full refund, plus perhaps - no guarantees to any of this of course, it's just my experience - £50 compensation.

 

The letter should be addressed to:

Paypal UK,

Whittaker House,

Whittaker Avenue,

Richmond,

Surrey,

TW9 1EH

 

Please keep us posted whatever you do.

 

Good Luck.

[raydetinu]

Here we go again, I understand that, but how can the card be used without authorisation when he authorised it, thats different to non delivery of item, and cliaming the money back, that I understand!

but has got proof of delivery so challenge PP as per mr Legal.

[richthegill]

Thanks for the offer of help Mr/Mrs/Miss Pickle!

To be honest I am terrible with writing letters like this so any advice would be more than welcome.

I presume it's basically what I have written above?

 

Many Thanks.

[legalpickle]

Here we go again, I understand that, but how can the card be used without authorisation when he authorised it, thats different to non delivery of item, and cliaming the money back, that I understand!

but has got proof of delivery so challenge PP as per mr Legal.

That's not what you wrote and still doesn't make sense, because obviously - duh! - the card could have been nicked! So the thief would have clicked "Authorize".

 

I know that's not likely to have happened in this circumstance and this is a common fraud with Paypal. One friend has been defrauded twice and I know that there are hundreds of others who are defrauded in the same way, normally for phones.

 

The way to get the better of them is to always keep the IMEI of the phone. If they do a chargeback then report the IMEI as lost or stolen, which will result in the phone being blocked in the UK and a few other countries.

 

Phones can legally be unlocked - which is letting them work on other networks - but it is illegal to unblock a phone, which is possible, but I don't think that all the fraudsters do it, some give up. Others sell the phones in countries that the unblock doesn't work in.

 

Whilst there are ways to unblock phones, this can screw with their minds, because there is a chance it won't be a real professional fraudster, just somebody who felt like doing a few small frauds or making some cash by selling a small consignment of mobiles - they quite often target the same mobile a few times.

 

By the way to the OP: Learn for future. Never sell a high-value item to somebody by Paypal with no feedback.

Edited September 18, 2008 by legalpickle

[richthegill]

I have requested the buyers details from ebay so have the address and phone number they registered when they setup their account, I have rung the number but "there's no one here with that name, by the way who's calling" I did mail them when they bid to confirm, obviously nowadays not good enough. I got the IMEI blocked so now the phone is useless, I have also printed off the auction listing, the paypal payment, the paypal payment for postage, the copy of proof of delivery so I think the next thing is to go to the police.

[legalpickle]

Thanks for the offer of help Mr/Mrs/Miss Pickle!

No probs. Mr.

 

To be honest I am terrible with writing letters like this so any advice would be more than welcome.

Hear it every day

 

I presume it's basically what I have written above?

No way, the only thing that will get you is the letter through the shredder and case thrown out of the FOS! Will try and find the letter I used for a friend tomorrow, but can't guarantee it or that I'll have time. So get working at preparing it, otherwise you could be waiting several months , as I've got loads on!

 

Many Thanks.

Always trying.

 

I have requested the buyers details from ebay so have the address and phone number they registered when they setup their account, I have rung the number but "there's no one here with that name, by the way who's calling" I did mail them when they bid to confirm, obviously nowadays not good enough.

Useless. They'll claim it was sent to a different person as to the credit card holder, you probably sent it to an "unverified" address which will be Paypal's first defence - mark my words.

 

I got the IMEI blocked so now the phone is useless,

In the UK! Unless unblocked!

 

I have also printed off the auction listing, the paypal payment, the paypal payment for postage, the copy of proof of delivery so I think the next thing is to go to the police.

Nope. Had this before. Police can't help unless Paypal allow them to work on it. Paypal will refuse to speak to them allegedly because of "Data Protection reasons", yup I know, bull, but that's those - I won't put anything here because it will be edited - ******* ****** ****** ******* ******* ********* - use your imagination - and is what will happen.

 

You can try, but print out a copy of this thread and keep it in your pocket. Afterwards you may be able to have a laugh with the copper - if it isn't a dimwit like all the other coppers I've encountered, especially recently!

 

Anyway's keep those to copy them for the Paypal letter - they go with as attachments - and to the FOS - again as attachments.

 

I find it best to keep things on my computer rather than increase my paperwork so print documents to PDF files with PrimoPDF from Free PDF Creator - Convert to PDF from Any File You Can Print - PrimoPDF.

 

Best of Luck!

[skyelet]

skyelet an e-item costing £300? Would be most interested in knowing what that would be.

 

its was a CD-key for a game that was released in minimal quantities at the time... they were selling for between 250 - 500GBP

[The Phantom]

Hi

I have got a similar problem. I sold something via ebay, buyer paid via paypal, I received notification of an instant payment and posted the item 2nd class.

A week later paypal tells me the buyer reversed the payment and took the money back off me

The buyer is not disputing receipt or anything, what most likely happened is that the buyer's paypal bank funding direct debit bounced

Paypal asked me all sorts of questions about the transaction and has now told me they will 'investigate' but will most likely return the money to the buyer

The 'buyer' is not responding to any e-mails.

 

I wonder whether their business practice to tell you you received an 'instant payment' and a week later tell you well actually you didn't (of course after you sent the goods) may be contrary to the new

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

 

Misleading omissions

 

6.—(1) A commercial practice is a misleading omission if, in its factual context, taking account of the matters in paragraph (2)—

(a) the commercial practice omits material information,

(b) the commercial practice hides material information,

© the commercial practice provides material information in a manner which is unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely, or

(d) the commercial practice fails to identify its commercial intent, unless this is already apparent from the context,

and as a result it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

 

Just a thought. I will take the matter to the Ombudsman if they don't refund my money, but wondering whether I should include the above in my complaint.

Just a thought

[legalpickle]

Hi

I have got a similar problem. I sold something via ebay, buyer paid via paypal, I received notification of an instant payment and posted the item 2nd class.

A week later paypal tells me the buyer reversed the payment and took the money back off me

The buyer is not disputing receipt or anything, what most likely happened is that the buyer's paypal bank funding direct debit bounced

Paypal asked me all sorts of questions about the transaction and has now told me they will 'investigate' but will most likely return the money to the buyer

The 'buyer' is not responding to any e-mails.

 

I wonder whether their business practice to tell you you received an 'instant payment' and a week later tell you well actually you didn't (of course after you sent the goods) may be contrary to the new

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

 

Misleading omissions

 

6.—(1) A commercial practice is a misleading omission if, in its factual context, taking account of the matters in paragraph (2)—

(a) the commercial practice omits material information,

(b) the commercial practice hides material information,

© the commercial practice provides material information in a manner which is unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely, or

(d) the commercial practice fails to identify its commercial intent, unless this is already apparent from the context,

and as a result it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

 

Just a thought. I will take the matter to the Ombudsman if they don't refund my money, but wondering whether I should include the above in my complaint.

Just a thought

1. You have to write a letter to Paypal first, and give them 8 weeks to respond before filling in the FOS form and taking it to them.

2. CPUT only very recently apply - I believe from 1st October - and don't apply retroactively.

3. Proving that Paypal is not abiding by CPUT would be very difficult and not worth it in my opinion as it would be costly and unlikely to succeed.

 

richthegill: How you coming along? I can't find the letter yet and completely forgot. If you remind me by posting a message on Sunday, then I'll look again.

[The Phantom]

1. You have to write a letter to Paypal first, and give them 8 weeks to respond before filling in the FOS form and taking it to them.

Yes, I have already made a note of their UK address above, easier than to send to Luxembourg

2. CPUT only very recently apply - I believe from 1st October - and don't apply retroactively.

3. Proving that Paypal is not abiding by CPUT would be very difficult and not worth it in my opinion as it would be costly and unlikely to succeed.

Have read on the site it came into effect in May this year so was hoping it might apply to my case or may just be worth mentioning in the letter to the FOS if one is required at the end of the day

[legalpickle]

Have read on the site it came into effect in May this year so was hoping it might apply to my case or may just be worth mentioning in the letter to the FOS if one is required at the end of the day

My mistake, they may have come in, in May this year, but:

1. Consumers can't take action for breach of the CPUT.

2. The FOS does not have the right of enforcement or compensation under breach of the CPUT.

3. I seriously doubt that it is relevant and would go as far as recommending not to include it in your complaint as it could be seen as pushing your luck and your complaint will be taken less seriously.

[The Phantom]

If I understand Bankfodder's post correctly burden of proof ref these new regulations is not on the consumer, but you are probably right with the FOS. I would have to complain to the OFT about Paypal separately

 

And I just re-read zamzara's post and it is stated these came into force end of May this year

 

So I may make a complaint to the OFT (parallel to a letter to the FOS if required)

[legalpickle]

If I understand Bankfodder's post correctly burden of proof ref these new regulations is not on the consumer, but you are probably right with the FOS. I would have to complain to the OFT about Paypal separately

 

And I just re-read zamzara's post and it is stated these came into force end of May this year

 

So I may make a complaint to the OFT (parallel to a letter to the FOS if required)

1. The people to complain to about CPUT are Consumer Focus - the new national consumer "champion" [yeah, right], not the OFT.

2. Why bother? If the FOS complaint gets you your money and even some compensation, what do you care? It's not dead cert that they are in breach of CPUT and there's probably some clause somewhere that lets them out of it or some blame on somebody else. Mark my words: Doing this would be a waste of your time and unlikely to get anywhere!

 

I'm the first in favour for screwing over Paypal, but don't waste your time on something that isn't going to do so!

[The Phantom]

1. The people to complain to about CPUT are Consumer Focus - the new national consumer "champion" [yeah, right], not the OFT.

2. Why bother? If the FOS complaint gets you your money and even some compensation, what do you care? It's not dead cert that they are in breach of CPUT and there's probably some clause somewhere that lets them out of it or some blame on somebody else. Mark my words: Doing this would be a waste of your time and unlikely to get anywhere!

 

I'm the first in favour for screwing over Paypal, but don't waste your time on something that isn't going to do so!

 

This is not what Bankfodder has posted. This is what he posted in the forum about CPUT:

 

Have you been treated unfairly by a business or a trader?

 

New rules introduced in May 2008 create general duties upon traders to act fairly and also identify 31 specific commercial practices as automatically unfair and therefore unlawful.

 

The new Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUT) create a general duty not to trade unfairly and also prohibit misleading and aggressive practices.

Unfortunately the CPUT regs have to be enforced directly by the OFT which means that the aggrieved consumer has to write a letter of complaint.

On the other hand, the OFT is obliged to follow up any complaint. The consumer does not need actually to have contracted with the trader. The complaint can be about unfair trading can be made any time during the transaction - before, during or after a contract is made and in fact there is no need to have contracted at all.

 

Furthermore, where a consumer has been induced to enter into a contract as a result of some unfair practice, then it seems to me that there is a basis to bring an action on a breach of contract on the grounds that all contracts must be conducted lawfully.

 

It seems to me that the general duty of fair dealing and also the prohibition on misleading or aggressive practices could be very useful as they are widely drafted.

In particular it might be able to use them to combat some unfair aspects of debt collection practice.

 

I think based on that a letter to the OFT would not cost more than a first class stamp but might highlight paypal's rather strange business practices

to them, which is long overdue really

[legalpickle]

This is not what Bankfodder has posted. This is what he posted in the forum about CPUT:

 

Have you been treated unfairly by a business or a trader?

 

New rules introduced in May 2008 create general duties upon traders to act fairly and also identify 31 specific commercial practices as automatically unfair and therefore unlawful.

 

The new Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUT) create a general duty not to trade unfairly and also prohibit misleading and aggressive practices.

Unfortunately the CPUT regs have to be enforced directly by the OFT which means that the aggrieved consumer has to write a letter of complaint.

On the other hand, the OFT is obliged to follow up any complaint. The consumer does not need actually to have contracted with the trader. The complaint can be about unfair trading can be made any time during the transaction - before, during or after a contract is made and in fact there is no need to have contracted at all.

 

Furthermore, where a consumer has been induced to enter into a contract as a result of some unfair practice, then it seems to me that there is a basis to bring an action on a breach of contract on the grounds that all contracts must be conducted lawfully.

 

It seems to me that the general duty of fair dealing and also the prohibition on misleading or aggressive practices could be very useful as they are widely drafted.

In particular it might be able to use them to combat some unfair aspects of debt collection practice.

 

I think based on that a letter to the OFT would not cost more than a first class stamp but might highlight paypal's rather strange business practices

to them, which is long overdue really

The OFT are the enforcing body, but complaints must be made to Consumer Focus. This according to the OFT and Consumer Focus themselves.

 

Paypal's rules are not necessarily in breach of CPUT and are unlikely to be ruled in breach of CPUT.

 

Furthermore, Paypal are incorporated in Luxembourg [or Liechtenstein - I always get confused!] and the only reason they are subject to the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service is because they have asked to be under the voluntary jurisdiction of the FOS. However, I don't believe the OFT can do anything about it.

 

In order for terms to be in breach of CPUT they must be clearly in breach and Paypal's terms are not clearly in breach, it is only the way they behave that looks that way, but even writing a letter is in my opinion a complete waste of time in this case.

[richthegill]

Hi Legal. Have spoken to Paypal a couple of times and threatened them with court action to claim back the money, interest, and compensation for stress and suffering, as them taking back £150 left me O/D and getting charges from the bank!!

I have tried a couple of times to write a letter but not got anywhere really.

[The Phantom]

The OFT are the enforcing body, but complaints must be made to Consumer Focus. This according to the OFT and Consumer Focus themselves.

 

Paypal's rules are not necessarily in breach of CPUT and are unlikely to be ruled in breach of CPUT.

 

Furthermore, Paypal are incorporated in Luxembourg [or Liechtenstein - I always get confused!] and the only reason they are subject to the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service is because they have asked to be under the voluntary jurisdiction of the FOS. However, I don't believe the OFT can do anything about it.

 

In order for terms to be in breach of CPUT they must be clearly in breach and Paypal's terms are not clearly in breach, it is only the way they behave that looks that way, but even writing a letter is in my opinion a complete waste of time in this case.

 

Well, I will have to see. The money is still "on hold" in my paypal account.

However, paypal has covered the minus balance by debiting my registered debit card without my authorisation and despite the amount being in dispute.

What happened:

I purchased something on ebay, paid the amount through paypal and rather than just debiting the amount for the item, paypal also added the minus amount and debited the lot to my card in one transaction !!

So against my account it looks as if I paid an awful lot more for the item, as paypal just added what they perceived I owed them.

I wonder whether that is allowed !?

[legalpickle]

Doubt it.

 

Include it in the FOS complaint.

[legalpickle]

Hi Legal. Have spoken to Paypal a couple of times and threatened them with court action to claim back the money, interest, and compensation for stress and suffering, as them taking back £150 left me O/D and getting charges from the bank!!

I have tried a couple of times to write a letter but not got anywhere really.

1. It is your duty to mitigate your losses so try and clear the overdraft ASAP.

 

2. Here is the one I did for my friend - minus confidential bits. You are going to have to change it for yourself, put in your relevant confidential parts, print it on your own letterhead - make one if necessary, then send it special delivery to the address I posted earlier before 'The Phantom' started ranting about CPUT . REALLY, REALLY, NOT DIFFICULT!!! If you believe in yourself, maybe you'd be able to do it next time. It will need you to touch it up quite a bit because I obviously don't know all the circumstances.

 

16th October 2008

Dear Sirs,

FINAL LETTER BEFORE LEGAL ACTION

I am writing as with regards to my Paypal account with the registered e-mail address: …@......... I demand a written response to this letter, as is my legal right.

I sold an item on eBay (put item here) on date and received payment of £xxx via Paypal on date. The item was then dispatched .

The buyer commenced a chargeback despite the item having been sent to the buyer.

I contend that as the sale was made the buyer had no right to make a chargeback but Paypal have consistently refused to listen to me, despite my numerous telephone calls and e-mails.

I therefore demand that Paypal refund me the £xxx due to me into my Paypal account without delay.

I demand a full and final written response from Paypal immediately, or I reserve the right to take action via the Financial Ombudsman Services, Court and/or Trading Standards.

Sincerely,

[The Phantom]

before 'The Phantom' started ranting about CPUT .

 

Cheers

[The Phantom]

or I reserve the right to take action via the Financial Ombudsman Services, Court and/or Trading Standards.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sorry to butt in again, but is there any point threatening them with TS or Court if it is no point complaining to the OFT ? Trading Standards, UK County Courts and the OFT equally won't have any jurisdiction over a Luxembourg company ?

The only possible body worth complaining to is the FOS then ?