BCW - reprise (a legal notification)

[davey_weir]

Ok, Otelo have responded with a final decision, and its not good news.

Have a read and throw in your comments/thoughts please.

I have already signed the form not accepting their decision and Im thinking of seeing a solicitor. What do you think?

 

The main thing I need is that default removing from my profile.

[pelham9]

You either accept the Ombudsman's findings and settle O2's bill at a discount or you do not. If you decide to contnue, involving a court you must consider some of the following.

 

The ombudsman is saying that he does not believe your story. Will a judge say the same. Have you further evidence to offer that the Ombudsman did not have the opportunity to consider.

 

He is saying that though you used the Orange phone extensively before during and after your holiday in Turkey, YOU must have taken the O2 phone with you as well as the Orange phone. (Why would you do that? Perhaps as a backup or an intention to defraud O2?) He bases this opinion on the O2 STATEMENT that their phone was used in Turkey during the time that you were there on holiday and that one call was made after your return to your landline from less than one mile from your home address. Also that a call was made from Liverpool on 14th August when you claimed you were in Turkey but this was not correct because you were using the Orange phone in the UK from 10th August.(Is this the the same call as the one mile call)

 

He seems to have made his opinion without requiring O2 to produce the places and the times of these calls and the phones called. Indeed YOU have never seen an account of these calls so that you can show that at least one could not have been made by you - they might have been made while you were using the Orange phone, from places you can prove you never visited. to people you have no connection with or at times that were impossible for you.

 

That in my view is the main criticism that can be made of his findings - a belief that O2's statement must be correct. You must insist that O2 produce their log for you to check - do not go near a court until you see this.

 

There is a discrepency that you should look into. The Orange bills show that your hollday in Turkey was 27th July to 10th August. You have said that you posted the O2 phone in the UK on 28th or 29th July?

 

You phoned O2 to cancel the contract within an extended cancellaation period and they do not dispute that they sent you a Jiffy bag to return the phone. Why did O2 not suspend the use of the phone and SIMM immediately? - I do not know what their system is but it would seem sensible to do this . Is it possible that they ageed to continue the service until you had your Orange phone i.e until they received the O2 phone from you? Would they do this?

 

You are claiming that if O2's log is correct someone else used your phone from the time you sent it back on ?28th 29th July to 14th August. Whom do you suggest did this? Possibly someone connected with O2 - maybe the person in O2 who opened the Jiffy bag to find a useable phone and SIMM or someone in the postal service. You must see and check carefully O2's log to make sure that at least one of the calls claimed could not have been made by you. Would you have your home telephone number on the O2 phone? If so this could be an explanation for the one mile home call.

 

I think your point about O2's return instructions not including the necessity for at least a proof of posting is valid. I do a lot of on-line shopping and invariably return services ask me to obtain proof of posting. I cannot understand why O2 do not do this - it is a fundamental precaution when posting an item as valuable as a useable phone and it costs them nothing.

 

Three things I have learnt. Never trust a valuable item to the post without proof. Never send a phone and SIMM in the same package. O2's public relations are cr*p.

[The GodMother]

Pelham

 

I see your point and would have made a point of demanding the call log.

 

Also just so u know but when my brother returned a mobile phone to Voda last year that was broken they sent out a bag but never asked him to us proof of posting and told him in writing that any excess charges were non refundable.

 

He sent by Recorded delivery but they refused to pay the excess postage as simply delivering to a post office and handing it over is good enough for them.

 

Oh and O2's public relations have always been crap i was with vodaphone and O2 persuaded me my calls would be cheaper and i found it was not rite and was getting strange calls they were willing to offer me a new phone package on a upgrade to settle my strange calls the only catch i had to keep my number?

 

I went to vodaphone now dispite a few issues, strange text messages from a vodaphone number i had not signed up to and few signal issues i have had no problems.

Edited July 15, 2009 by The GodMother

[davey_weir]

He is saying that though you used the Orange phone extensively before during and after your holiday in Turkey, YOU must have taken the O2 phone with you as well as the Orange phone. (1. Why would you do that? Perhaps as a backup or an intention to defraud O2?) He bases this opinion on the O2 STATEMENT that their phone was used in Turkey during the time that you were there on holiday and that one call was made after your return to your landline from less than one mile from your home address. Also that a call was made from Liverpool on 14th August when you claimed you were in Turkey but this was not correct because you were using the Orange phone in the UK from 10th August.(Is this the the same call as the one mile call)

 

He seems to have made his opinion without requiring O2 to produce the places and the times of these calls and the phones called. Indeed YOU have never seen an account of these calls so that you can show that at least one could not have been made by you - they might have been made while you were using the Orange phone, from places you can prove you never visited. to people you have no connection with or at times that were impossible for you.

 

That in my view is the main criticism that can be made of his findings - a belief that O2's statement must be correct. 2. You must insist that O2 produce their log for you to check - do not go near a court until you see this.

 

There is a discrepency that you should look into. The Orange bills show that your hollday in Turkey was 27th July to 10th August. You have said that you posted the O2 phone in the UK on 28th or 29th July?

 

3. You phoned O2 to cancel the contract within an extended cancellaation period and they do not dispute that they sent you a Jiffy bag to return the phone. Why did O2 not suspend the use of the phone and SIMM immediately? - I do not know what their system is but it would seem sensible to do this . Is it possible that they ageed to continue the service until you had your Orange phone i.e until they received the O2 phone from you? Would they do this?

 

You are claiming that if O2's log is correct someone else used your phone from the time you sent it back on ?28th 29th July to 14th August. 4. Whom do you suggest did this? Possibly someone connected with O2 - maybe the person in O2 who opened the Jiffy bag to find a useable phone and SIMM or someone in the postal service. You must see and check carefully O2's log to make sure that at least one of the calls claimed could not have been made by you. Would you have your home telephone number on the O2 phone? If so this could be an explanation for the one mile home call.

 

I think your point about O2's return instructions not including the necessity for at least a proof of posting is valid. I do a lot of on-line shopping and invariably return services ask me to obtain proof of posting. I cannot understand why O2 do not do this - 5. it is a fundamental precaution when posting an item as valuable as a useable phone and it costs them nothing.

 

Three things I have learnt. Never trust a valuable item to the post without proof. Never send a phone and SIMM in the same package. O2's public relations are cr*p.

 

1. Exactly. My orange phone was happily in use before I left for Turkey, so why would I NEED to use my o2 phone? And, I am not a farudulant person, although in this instance I wish I was!!

 

2. How do I demand this?

 

3. When I called I told them I was leaving to go to Orange as I wasnt happy, they accepted and sent out a Jiffy bag saying "well we dont usually but we will on this occasion" and it wasnt even a jiffy bag, it was a plastic "mailing" bag. Isnt this my notice of cancellation? And youre right, why didnt they suspend the contract and block the sim?

 

4. Yes, I think everyone has their home phone number in their phones, dont they? I went back the Post Office to report a lost/missing parcel, but they said without any tracking method attached to it they couldnt trace it. And it goes back to the point of I was using an Orange phone at the time and have proven this, so why would I use an o2 phone which I have cancelled and send back. Indeed HOW could I use it?

 

5. Hindsight is fantastic, and these are things I have learned.

 

Where do you think I go with this, based on my answers. If I accept the ombudsman's decision I am admitting guilt and also giving in to their unacceptable level of customer service. This is something which I refuse to do.

[The GodMother]

you can ask for the ombudsman to ask o2 to produce all statements from the dates as they have not allowed u to see them or u can sar themfot £10

[davey_weir]

I think Im going to write to the ombudsman tomorrow whilst Im really "busy" in work, and explain that until I decide whether to accept or reject his decision I need further info, and request that o2 supply me with everything they hold on me.

[davey_weir]

Here is the content of the letter I am sending to the Ombudsman tomorrow morning.

What do you think?

 

Thank you for your Final Decision. Once again I must stress my disappointment at your findings and your reliance on probability. Did you also consider that as I went into the post office with the phone concerned in a jiffy bag as requested and handed it over to the post office clerk, it is probable that it has “gone missing” in transit, either by someone at the post office depot or, more probably, upon its arrival at o2.

 

Anyway, until I can decide whether the most benefit lies in accepting or rejecting your final decision, I need more information to clear up a few issues, namely:

 

You say that though I used the Orange phone extensively before during and after my holiday in Turkey, I PERSONALLY must have taken the O2 phone with me as well as the Orange phone.

Why would I do that?

 

You base this opinion on the O2 STATEMENT that their phone was used in Turkey during the time that I were there on holiday and that one call was made after my return to my landline from less than one mile from my home address. Also that a call was made from Liverpool on 14th August when I was in Turkey but this was not correct because you were using the Orange phone in the UK from 10th August.

Is this the same call as the one-mile call?

 

You seem to have made your opinion without requiring O2 to produce the places and the times of these calls and the phones called. Indeed I have never seen an account of these calls so that I can show that at least one may not have been made by me - they might have been made while I were using the Orange phone, from places I can prove I never visited, to people I have no connection with or at times that were impossible for me.

 

I must insist that O2 produce their log for me to check.

 

I phoned O2 to cancel the contract within an extended cancellation period and o2 do not dispute that they sent me a Jiffy bag to return the phone. Why did O2 not suspend the use of the phone and SIMM immediately? - I do not know what their system is but it would seem sensible to do this.

 

If O2's log is correct someone else used my phone from the time I sent it back around 28th July to 14th August.

Who did this? Possibly someone connected with O2 - maybe the person in O2 who opened the Jiffy bag to find a useable phone and SIMM or someone in the postal service. I must see and check O2's log to confirm that at least one of the calls claimed could not have been made by me. I, like everyone else, stores their numbers in their mobile phone, including my home telephone number. This explains the one-mile from home call.

 

I think my point about O2's return instructions not including the necessity for at least a proof of posting is valid.

 

I therefore request you insist that o2 provide every detail about the account I held with them on which there is a dispute.

 

Until such information is received a decision is not possible on my behalf.

 

Can I also request you send me forms to either accept or reject this decision, as I did not receive any with your decision.

 

Many thanks for your assistance in this matter.

 

Yours truly,

[The GodMother]

thats good.

 

you have made all ur points clear and made it very clear as to y u dispute the claim by them as u have never seen any evidence.

[davey_weir]

Had a letter back today from Otelo.

 

They said they are sorry to hear that I am not happy with the final decision. They said that "although they accept that I do not think I made the calls in question, they still think I am liable for these calls."

They said I should send an SAR with £10 to o2 for details about my account.

They also said I should make a decision about their final decision by 6th September.

[The GodMother]

well i would SAR them then see what happens.

 

It is amazing that otelo has not required any proff of calls b4 they made decision as i would make sure they requested that sort of thing.

[davey_weir]

UPDATE

 

SAR to be sent this week

Also letter to the ombudsman requesting an extention to the deadline to accept/reject his final decision.

[davey_weir]

Just a little update.

 

I sent the Subject Access Request off last week (I didnt have the money to do it)

 

I also received a letter from Otelo yesterday saying they could not extend the deadline for acceptance of my final decision by 40 days at such a late stage in the case. What they could do was extend it until 18th September, which still doesnt help me as an SAR takes 40 days maximum by law to come through.

 

This is totally unjust.

[davey_weir]

Received a letter from otelo stating the deadline has now expired and the ombudsmans decision is no longer binding to o2.

 

I am yet to receive the details requested in my SAR.

 

I am writing to explain that I cannot make my final decision on probability as the ombudsman has stated he did, and that I must request that otelo extend the deadline to seven days after the date of receipt of the information requested from o2.

 

What happens if o2 do not acknowledge the SAR within the 40 days? I sent them a cheque which remains uncashed.

[davey_weir]

UPDATE

 

No details received from o2 as REQUIRED by law under the Data Protection Act. I googled SAR and found some interesting documentation from the Isle of Man. I wonder if the regulations are the same over here? If so, then how and where do I go with this:

 

I haven’t received a response. What happens now?

 

If you have not received a response by the end of the 40 day period, then the organisation will have committed a breach of the Sixth Data Protection Principle, which provides for the rights of the data subject.

 

At this point you have two options:

 

1. You may request the Office of the Data Protection Supervisor to undertake an assessment to determine if the organisation has complied with your request. This will normally elicit a rapid response from the organisation without you resorting to legal action.
   

• Or
   
  

1. You can refer the matter directly to the High Court. The Court can order the organisation to comply with your request and, if satisfied that the failure to comply was unjustified, impose a penalty of up to £5000. You may also seek compensation if you have suffered distress due to the failure to comply with the request. If you contemplate taking legal action, we recommend that you seek legal advice from a Manx advocate.
   

And also:

What if I don’t respond within the 40 days?

You will be in breach of the Sixth Data Protection Principle. The person can then request

the Data Protection Supervisor to undertake an assessment of the information you hold

about them on their behalf. The person can also seek compensation for distress and

the Court could additionally fine you up to £5000.

Does this assessment have to happen?

Yes – if the Supervisor receives a request for assessment, the law states that the

Supervisor ‘shall’ undertake an assessment. This is normally done through correspondence

and usually a subsequent, mutually arranged meeting at the business premises.

At this meeting the Supervisor will decide which information comes under the right of

subject access and advise you to disclose these details if you have not already done so.

If no response is received to the correspondence or a meeting is not possible, or the

company objects, then a formal Information Notice will be served, or the powers of entry

and inspection, as conferred by the Act, can be utilised to gain access to the records within

the premises.

And if I still don’t give the information out?

Failure to comply with the advice of the Supervisor or with an Information Notice can lead

to further action being taken. An Enforcement Notice may be issued legally requiring you to

comply with the SAR.

What happens if I still don’t comply with the Notices?

Failure to comply with either Notice is a criminal offence and can result in the matter being

referred to the High Court who can fine the business up to £5000.

[The GodMother]

report them to the information commissioners office. Have they recieved the request and cashed the cheque yet?

[davey_weir]

Its been a while!

 

Received a letter saying they have sold my account on to Lowell Portfolio - the sharks who were on Watchdog not so long ago.

 

Anyway, Ive filed a complaint with the information commissioners office and await their response.

[noomill060]

Then that is where it will end. With Lowells.

 

Lowells are the end if the line, the true bottomfeeders of the DCA world.

 

As soon as you hear from them, hit them with a CCA request,

[The GodMother]

If you get a letter remind them its in dispute as they amount claimed is due to fraudlent calls made whenyou did not own the phone.

[davey_weir]

Then that is where it will end. With Lowells.

 

Lowells are the end if the line, the true bottomfeeders of the DCA world.

 

As soon as you hear from them, hit them with a CCA request,

 

Sorry, what is a CCA request and who do I send that to? Lowells have written to me today.

 

If you get a letter remind them its in dispute as they amount claimed is due to fraudlent calls made whenyou did not own the phone.

 

This is what I intend to do.

[maroondevo52]

Sorry, what is a CCA request and who do I send that to? Lowells have written to me today.

 

Send this to Lowells..................

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

[The GodMother]

I thought dave could not as its for a mobile phone that went missing after posting it back to the company.

[davey_weir]

I thought dave could not as its for a mobile phone that went missing after posting it back to the company.

 

You thought I couldnt what?

 

Its actually a company called red debt collection agency who have been assigned by Lowells Portfolio, who have given me 10 days from the date of their letter to set up a repayment plan or pay in full.

 

They can do one. They have ignored my SAR, and the complaint is in with the Information Comissioner and Im waiting their response.

 

How long does this take, and should I send the CCA to Lowells/red/both?

[The GodMother]

You cant do a CCA.

 

I would write to red advising that the account is in dispute and currently under investigation by the information commissioners office due to the refusal of O2 to supply information required for a possible fraud case and advise them that untill the possible fraud case and ICo investigation is over no payments will be made due to the seriousness of this case.

[davey_weir]

Received this letter today. Its from a company based in Leeds called Hamptons Legal:

 

You were informed previously by Red Debt Collections Services that if your account was not settles, or that if you had not entered into a repayment plan litlgation would be considered to recover the outstanding balance.

 

As you have not done either, we are assessing your account for litigation purposes. We may now issue county court proceedings against you with a view of recovering the outstanding balance owed by you. Any Judgement that may subsequently be made against you bu the Court, may see your outstanding balance increase significantly with court costs and interest.

 

I must stress at this point we would still prefer to reach an amicable agreement with you and not use the services of the court system and therefore I am prepared to offer you two options for repayemnt.

 

1. Pay £536.14, this is a 25% saving on your outstanding balance

2. Pay £25 per month by direct debit until the outstanding balance is cleared

 

If you would like to take advantage one of the offers outlined above, or discuss an alternative repayment solution then please call the number below and one of our advisors will be more than happy to help.

 

Unless an acceptable repayment plan or agreed settlement is in place within 10 days of this letter, legal proceedings may commence.

 

Should legal proceedings be commenced there will be an additional claim made against you for payment of interest on the overdue amount in accordance with Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 together with legal costs.

 

Furthermore, should any judgement be subsequently granted against you bu the Court this may be registered against you at the Register of County COurt Judgements. This would then remain as a public record for a period of up to six years and as a consequence may affect your future ability to obtain credit.

 

We would urge you not to ignore this correspondance and contact us on 0844 844 4720 with a view to resolving this issue as a matter of urgency.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Stephen Hunter

Director of Legal Services

Hamptons Legal

 

Ok so I now need to write to these people to tell them Im in the process of gathering my evidence for a complaint against o2 registered with the ICO, after they blanked my SAR.

 

What do you think?

[ODC]

Hampton iLegal are just another desk in the Clownells Threat Centre. They are the same as Red Dent and Lowell and for obvious reasons are better known on here as the Leeds losers.

 

Dont even dignify it with a reply