Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

[vjohn82]

Some posters refer to the possibility of a copy of a CCA being produced in Court, where the original is unavailable/destroyed.

 

Surely this is not permissible? I refer to Practice direction supplementing CPR Part 16:

So surely the original must be produced in Court?

 

CPR 16

Practice Direction PART 16

STATEMENTS OF CASE

This Practice direction supplements CPR Part 16

 

OTHER MATTERS TO BE INCLUDED IN PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

7.3

Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

 

(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Does this include CCJ hearings? I mean if I was served a claim form with PoC would they have had to included a copy of the agreement?

[JonCris]

Yes but you may have to demand it

[foolishgirl]

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and...

 

 

And as usual, the devil is in the detail - note the word 'should' not 'must'. Ultimately it is up to the discretion of the court.

[MAGDA]

And as usual, the devil is in the detail - note the word 'should' not 'must'. Ultimately it is up to the discretion of the court.

 

I completely agree with you FG, although the original should be available (how easy is it to reconstruct an agreement after all) but all it takes is one judge to be biased toward the creditor and that's it - he'll just say that a copy is enough. As you have said, the county court is a fickle thing.

 

Magda

[lexis200]

I still find it incredible that they can do this. After all, if judgie was sat there faced with a company using a copy of A N Other contract to win, would he think it was all fine and dandy in these days of Photoshop etc? I think not!

 

A contract is a contract. A copy of a contract could be any number of contracts cobbled together. It's just wrong that this happens.

[JonCris]

Can somebody find the section in the Administration of Justice which states that an order CANNOT be made or an agreement enforced by the court without a copy of an original 'signed' agreement

[foolishgirl]

There seems to be some confusion here as to a default & a default notice.

 

A default can be registered by a creditor or DCA on your credit reference file any time you miss a specified payment. It's usually when you are 3 months in arrears but not always. They will usually write & tell you that this will be their action if you don't sort your account out.

 

A default notice MUST be issued by a creditor prior to terminating your account & it has to be in a format specified by the regulations & state the statutory notice by way of specific date by which you have to pay the arrears. They also MUST prove that the notice was sent on a date that would permit you the 14 days notice so it is very important that you keep any envelopes that a DN is delivered in. If the statutory requirements are not met in any form & the account is then terminated, the OC is only entitled to collect the arrears at the date of the DN & never, ever the full balance of the account.

 

I hope that helps you, katedog, establish which situation applies to you.

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hi I'm new to this so excuse if i get things wrong. I have made an application to set aside a default judgment. The POC only refered to "a credit agreement". Can I still use CPR 31.14 and any suggestions as to best way to ament request posted at start of this thread.

[citizenB]

Hi I'm new to this so excuse if i get things wrong. I have made an application to set aside a default judgment. The POC only refered to "a credit agreement". Can I still use CPR 31.14 and any suggestions as to best way to ament request posted at start of this thread.

 

Yes, you can still use the CPR 31.14.. just remove the bits that dont apply to you in the draft letter, If you want to pop your finished version on your own thread.. we can have a look for you.

[pt2537]

they have disclosed in their pleadings a "credit Agreement" therefore you are entitled to see the "credit agreement" as it is clear that this document forms the basis of their claim

 

CitizenB is correct;)

[Guest Alison82]

^^ What if I haven't even started a claim yet? I am trying to get as much information that they hold on me before I start anything.

 

Thanks

[the_shadow]

^^ What if I haven't even started a claim yet? I am trying to get as much information that they hold on me before I start anything.

 

Thanks

 

You cant use CPR 31.14 without a claim being in process...

 

CPR 31.16 is the one you want for pre-disclosure documents.. see this thread..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

But read the first 8-10 posts of the thread carefully before instigating anything

 

S.

[andrew1]

I've read the first few pages of this thread and it's so precise, thank you x20..

 

I am helping a friend with a car hire purchase agreement. 3 page document, signatures on 3rd page. Following 4 pages of T & C's - all badly smudged and unreadable.

 

Judge ordered Claimant to produce legible copies at the hearing at which he placed a stay. The agreement eventually came back a blown up copy and just about readable, but the t & c's were missing and I doubt they will be able to copy those effectively as it's obvious they only have this very poor quality scanned copy of the whole lot.

 

Does the fact the T & c's are not provided legibly put them in breach of the Judges Order for a copy of the agreement.?. do these t & c's form part of the agreement when the signatures are before the t & c's not after them? Would it be worth sending a request such as this 31.14 or shall we be safe leaving it with the Judges Order..?

 

Thank you for a brilliant thread.

[MAGDA]

Hi, I'm reading the thread with interest perhaps someone can help me out, I have recieved the same from Link Financial, they have sent me a copy of MBNA terms and conditions on them and my name and address, no signature, in fact I cant even remember getting a letter before from Link regarding this debt, they are stating that they going to try and take me to court and either make me bankrupt or a charging order on my house, they stated they sent me the copy of the CCJ request last year when I originally requested this but they certainly did not. What do you suggest?

 

I also have another debt with a company called Lowells, this is very strange, I CCJ Lowells anad they duly sent me back a copy of a reply card dated 5/12/99 this is for a credit card i applied for to Providian Bank, the terms and conditions are for a Monument Credit card no signature on that, then they are saying they bought this debt from a company called Compucredit. Lowells have sent me a default notice and a statement of account in the name of Lowell Portfolio. How do I start to contest this?

Credit crad reply form that has Credit Card Regulated by Consumer Act 1974 applying for a Providian Credit Card and Pin, my old address of 8 years ago, Terms and conditions in the name of Monument with my new address on agreement between R.Raphel & Sons PLC t/as Monument.

 

Hi alisono, the debts will more than likely have been assigned to Link and Lowell (both companies tend to purchase debts normally) and you should have received a notice of assignment informing you of this. The assignment is not valid until such time that you do.

 

Link cannot make you bankrupt or get a charge on your property, they would need to go to court to do this, and would need to obtain a forthwith judgement (ordering you to pay the full balance outstanding) and it is far from certain that they would, especially if you defend any future claim. They make these claims to intimidate you into making payments.

 

re: the CCA requests you have submitted to these companies, the response seems to be a copy of their t&c's only, as the documents don't seem to have your signature, is this correct?

 

I would send a follow up letter along the lines of the one I am posting below and then wait and see what their next move (if any) is. If they don't have an agreement containing all of the prescribed terms with your signature on it, then the debts are unenforceable and there is nothing they can do. Can I just check, when were these accounts opened, was it before April 2007?

 

Finally, I would start a separate thread for each of the above and post a link to them here. that way you should get more specific help. Also, would be a good idea to post up the documents sent to you by Link and Lowell on your thread to get an opinion on what has been sent so far.

 

Best wishes,

 

Magda

 

 

Letter you could send (adapted as necessary) is:

 

Further to your letter dated xxxxxxxxxxxx. In response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the documents provided at that time were a standard copy of the current Terms and Conditions only. A copy of the executed agreement relating to the alleged account was not forthcoming.

 

However, as I am sure you are aware,this does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer credit Act and is therefore unenforceable under section 127(3) of the same act.

 

You entered into default of my request on xxxxxxx. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, make any further charges to the account or pass the account to anybody else.

 

I now request that the relevant documentation is provided in relation to the above account. I require a true copy of the executed agreement, the terms and conditions relevant at that time and additionally a statement(s) of account providing a complete breakdown of how the alleged debt was calculated.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies including any defaults.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.I shall also be considering further action to recover unlawfully applied interest and charges that have been levied on the “Agreement”.

Edited September 30, 2009 by MAGDA

[diddydicky]

how long ago did you acknowlege these debts (you mention 1999)

if you have had no contact for 6 years they are statute barred and you can tell them to swivel

[steve2577]

Hi Guys

 

Dont want to appear a complete numpty but can I ask a question which might be pertinant to this thread.

 

After issuing a request for Agreement using CCA 1974 section 78

I got what appears to be a standard letter from Barclaycard the usual stuff blank contracts etc. But the letter States

 

We note your reference to the Civil Procedure Rules. We have provided you with sufficient information to allow you to understand our position. The CPR does not confer an automatic entitlement to documents before proceedings start. CPR 31.16 provides that a party may apply to the court for pre-action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. This application must be supported by evidence - and the usual order is for the applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the respondent's costs, together with the respondent's costs of complying with any order that is made as a result (CPR 48.1(2)).

 

It seems to be the first time that I have seen CPR 48 mentioned.

 

My head feels like it is going to explode but can somebody point me to an idiots guide to CPR rules and regulations. I am sure other numpties like me might benefit from a simple clear breakdown of all the jargon and forms.

 

Apologies if I have just butted in I have tried to read and understand the total thread but it got a bit hazy in the middle.

 

 

Many Regards Steve:???:

[the_shadow]

Hi Guys

 

Dont want to appear a complete numpty but can I ask a question which might be pertinant to this thread.

 

Not really, there is a thread titled "why you shouldnt use s78...." and your questions are answered on that thread tbh

 

After issuing a request for Agreement using CCA 1974 section 78

I got what appears to be a standard letter from Barclaycard the usual stuff blank contracts etc. But the letter States

 

Barclays have updated their templates and include this on most s78 replies apparently.

 

It seems to be the first time that I have seen CPR 48 mentioned.

 

CPR 48 deals with costs

 

My head feels like it is going to explode but can somebody point me to an idiots guide to CPR rules and regulations. I am sure other numpties like me might benefit from a simple clear breakdown of all the jargon and forms.

 

Ok, first things first...

 

CPR 31.14 is to obtain information mentioned on particulars of claim forms, that is... if you have recieved a court claim in the post you could issue a CPR 31.14 request to the solicitors for documents specifically mentioned in the POC.

 

CPR 31.16 is for PRE-court procedural disclosure and is to be used prior to court proceedings to obtain a limited set of documents

 

If you google CPR it'll take you to the CPR site which lists all of them in numerical order and gives details of what each section deals with... ensure you do it in the morning tho as it'll send you to sleep at night.

 

S.

[diddydicky]

I think you misunderstood what I am trying to say!

Copies of papers FROM the court not to them:D

 

if the court records indicate that documents were sent to the other side - then as far as the court is concerned they WERE sent- end of!!

 

they have heard "we never received the letter guv" a million times (from both sides) and it is water off a ducks back

[CBR600F]

if the court records indicate that documents were sent to the other side - then as far as the court is concerned they WERE sent- end of!!

 

they have heard "we never received the letter guv" a million times (from both sides) and it is water off a ducks back

 

I agree but see original post that I was replying to with a random thought...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1777013.html

Edited April 6, 2010 by CBR600F
Wrong link updating

[CBR600F]

Hi I have sent off a CPR 31.14 on the 6th April by recorded not sure if it went 1st or 2nd class recorded - my wife sent it.

Anyway assuming 2nd class that's four working days so they would have legally? been severed it Monday 12th.

 

I obviously know they have 7 days to reply but is that working days and how many days do you have to allow for the delivery of their reply?

[wycombe]

If you sent your request Recorded Delivery you can check when it was signed for on the Royal Mail web site and who signed for it. Then your count down begins.

[vjohn82]

Yup!

 

 

http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/track;jsessionid=XH4NFSE4YARDWFB2IGIVFHQ;jsessionid=XH4NFSE4YARDWFB2IGIVFHQ?catId=22700601&emt=emt&track=track&default=default&imageRootPath=&loc=en_GB&keyname=track_home&gear=track

[CBR600F]

Yes I know that and they have received it RM web site does not update instantly.

 

What i was asking is the following:-

 

....they have 7 days to reply but is that working days and how many days do you have to allow for the delivery of their reply?

[citizenB]

Yes I know that and they have received it RM web site does not update instantly.

 

What i was asking is the following:-

 

....they have 7 days to reply but is that working days and how many days do you have to allow for the delivery of their reply?

 

They have 7 calendar days from receipt of the letter. You can always phone RM if the website is not updated.

[gh2008]

Yes I know that and they have received it RM web site does not update instantly.

 

What i was asking is the following:-

 

....they have 7 days to reply but is that working days and how many days do you have to allow for the delivery of their reply?

 

I would allow for service by 2nd class i.e. 4 working days

 

So, in total prob 14 calendar days from the day your OH posted it