Proving ID - how much personal info can new employer ask for?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Irrelevant - point us to the relevant section that legislates that a UK company is obligated to employ an employee without ASKING for ID.

 

Oh c'mon Mrshed!

 

You are simply stating the same thing as I did but in reverse!!

 

An employer needs ID from those he may suspect are illegal workers.

 

That is not the same as the need to ask everybody!

 

That is not the legislation!!

 

Geddit now???

[elche]

Point me to the relevant section that legislates that a UK citizen has to produce any form of ID to work in the UK, ok?

 

Point me to anywhere above that I have said that, 'a uk citizen has to produce any form of ID to work'.

 

The legislation means an employer could be fined £10,000 per worker if that worker did not have a right to work in the UK.

 

Furthermore if one considers race discrim legislation in tandem with this then a prudent policy would be to ask all prospective employees for proof of eligibility to work in the UK.

 

It is merely a request from the employer and you could refuse. The employer could then (assuming you didn't show any other proof of eligibility to work) refuse to employ you and / or dismiss you if you were already employed. This could be defended in ET as either stat ban and / or an SOSR dismissal

 

Of course there is no specific section in the act that states 'all UK citizens must show ID to work' but the practical effect of the act when read in tandem with other legislation is that safest and best practice would be to ask all applicants regardless of whether they 'look and sound English' to produce ID.

 

I stand by everything in my earlier post.

[MrShed]

Oh c'mon Mrshed!

 

You are simply stating the same thing as I did but in reverse!!

 

An employer needs ID from those he may suspect are illegal workers.

 

That is not the same as the need to ask everybody!

 

That is not the legislation!!

 

Geddit now???

 

You are dead right - that is exactly what I am stating. Because that would be the pertinent question.

 

There is nothing PREVENTING employers doing this, nor is there any legislation preventing employers from refusing staff who do not produce ID.

 

It is clearly prudent to do so - you are giving an employee carte blanche with areas of your business.

 

Your argument that a company MUST not do ANYTHING over and above what legislation demands is frankly ludicrous.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

By the way Al....pleased you ignored the raft of points I made, and replied only to the very last afterthought one I made

 

Ok, why not check my references, where they could be from a police officer friend, a lawyer, etc etc

 

Why not check my school history if I had recently just left? Or my college, university?

 

Why not have a chat with me at interview where you could use your judgment to realise that I am born and bred UK?

 

Why not check my qualifications to realise I must have been living in the UK for at least 20 years? And therefore entitled to work here.

 

Why not check my last and only ever employer where I worked for 35 years???!!!

 

Can you not see this is how common sense and judgment are best used?

 

But now it is just a case of-give me your passport!

[MrShed]

For absolute clarification, the points I am awaiting your answers on Al :

 

- Why a company cannot go beyond its legal obligations.

- How you would propose identifying and verifying a potential employee.

- Why it is not prudent for a company to identify its staff.

- Why you seem to think that ID has NEVER been used in the past.

- Why change should never occur.

- Why a company should not complete their legal obligations in preventing illegal immigrants from working.

- In what respect passport production is "intrusive" over and above information giving to your employer.

 

Sorry, just reminding - in case you had forgotten about these points, I am of course positive that you were getting round to addressing them

[MrShed]

Ok, why not check my references, where they could be from a police officer friend, a lawyer, etc etc

 

Why not check my school history if I had recently just left? Or my college, university?

 

Why not have a chat with me at interview where you could use your judgment to realise that I am born and bred UK?

 

Why not check my qualifications to realise I must have been living in the UK for at least 20 years? And therefore entitled to work here.

 

Why not check my last and only ever employer where I worked for 35 years???!!!

 

Can you not see this is how common sense and judgment are best used?

 

But now it is just a case of-give me your passport!

 

 

All of which mean nothing without photographic ID. I could go in pretending to be you. The employer calls all of the above "yeh hes great, blah blah blah" - but it is the WRONG PERSON they are talking about!

 

Besides, it is naive at best to say these kind of references are not faked incredibily easily.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Point me to anywhere above that I have said that, 'a uk citizen has to produce any form of ID to work'.

 

The legislation means an employer could be fined £10,000 per worker if that worker did not have a right to work in the UK.

 

Furthermore if one considers race discrim legislation in tandem with this then a prudent policy would be to ask all prospective employees for proof of eligibility to work in the UK.

 

It is merely a request from the employer and you could refuse. The employer could then (assuming you didn't show any other proof of eligibility to work) refuse to employ you and / or dismiss you if you were already employed. This could be defended in ET as either stat ban and / or an SOSR dismissal

 

Of course there is no specific section in the act that states 'all UK citizens must show ID to work' but the practical effect of the act when read in tandem with other legislation is that safest and best practice would be to ask all applicants regardless of whether they 'look and sound English' to produce ID.

 

edited

.

 

I stand by everything in my earlier post.

 

No surprise there then. edited

 

 

...

Edited September 11, 2008 by jonni2bad

[MrShed]

No surprise there then. You are the type to argue night is day!...

 

Pot.....kettle.....a very very very dark shade of dark blue?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

All of which mean nothing without photographic ID. I could go in pretending to be you. The employer calls all of the above "yeh hes great, blah blah blah" - but it is the WRONG PERSON they are talking about!

 

Besides, it is naive at best to say these kind of references are not faked incredibily easily.

 

Hah, got you! And a passport isn't easily faked?! Or any other form of what is considered ID in the UK?

 

And I'd say a reference request to PC Plod addressed to the local nick has a much better chance of being genuine!

[MrShed]

Passport - I personally couldnt fake.

 

References - PC with MS Word on.

 

Thats not to say that a passport cant be faked - of course it can. But "easily" is a stretch. Also, it is clearly a line that many people would not cross.

[elche]

No surprise there then. You are the type to argue night is day

 

No I wouldn't argue that because that would be wrong.

 

What I would argue is that everything I have said above is correct and in that I would be right.

 

This is why I think a little knowledge can be dangerous as you seem to be ignoring the practical effect of s.15 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 when read in tandem with the RRA 1976.

 

I can recommend some good employment law books if you want to learn how to give legally correct employment law advice?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

For absolute clarification, the points I am awaiting your answers on Al :

 

- Why a company cannot go beyond its legal obligations.

Clarify this question please?

- How you would propose identifying and verifying a potential employee.

Read the application, invite for interview, talk to them, get in touch with references, their previous employer/s, schools etc USE JUDGMENT.

- Why it is not prudent for a company to identify its staff.

Clarify again.

- Why you seem to think that ID has NEVER been used in the past.

It wasn't used for me last week when I got a new job. The boss and I chatted and he has common sense.

- Why change should never occur.

I'm all for change but for the better. Illegals need to prove their ID, I don't as I'm Welsh (don't like to use British!)

- Why a company should not complete their legal obligations in preventing illegal immigrants from working.

- In what respect passport production is "intrusive" over and above information giving to your employer.

Because very few authorities have the right to inspect a passport. Why should some numpty do so AND photocopy it just to get a job in my local boozer??

 

Sorry, just reminding - in case you had forgotten about these points, I am of course positive that you were getting round to addressing them

 

I think you like to wind members up!

[elche]

Pot.....kettle.....a very very very dark shade of dark blue?

 

LOL ..... a fair point me thinks WAY?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Passport - I personally couldnt fake.

 

References - PC with MS Word on.

 

Thats not to say that a passport cant be faked - of course it can. But "easily" is a stretch. Also, it is clearly a line that many people would not cross.

 

Hang fire!

 

How could you fake a reference when you give the name of your referee as PC Plod and the address as the local nick to your potential employer?

 

The employer then just writes to PC Plod for a reference.

 

How do you fake that?

[elche]

WAY

 

You seem to be ignoring the practical effect of s.15 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 when read in tandem with the RRA 1976

 

I'm sure your getting round to explaining this point WAY?

[MrShed]

Pot and kettle again Al - come on, play nice!

 

Questions as above.

 

1) Your argument for saying that companies shouldnt ask for ID is because they are not obliged to. That is not an argument, just a statement of fact - I gave the example of a credit card company giving credit where they are not obliged to above...?

2) But without knowing who the references/employers/schools/aunties/uncles refer to by PROVING identity, these references could have just come fresh from wiping my a**e, for all the reliability they have.

3) Clarification: a company is allowing an employee access to a LOT of priviledged information. Why do you feel it is not prudent to have identification b eyond reasonable doubt of who this employee is, in order to minimise the risk of any wrongdoing?

4) Thats not an answer - thats a personal anecdote. Every job I've ever had I have had to produce photographic ID by that token.

5) So change is not for the better if it limits potential criminal and fraudulent acts?

6) Well ignored

7) And an employer doesnt have a right to inspect either, but you dont have a "right" to a job.

[morteee]

what if you dont have a passport OR a driving licence?

 

does the lack of photo id suddenly make you unemployable?

[Weird Al Yankovic]

 

I can recommend some good employment law books if you want to learn how to give legally correct employment law advice?

 

Huh? But you have just proven in this thread that you had no real idea of what this legislation being debated is or what it is inteded to do.

 

I suggest members just read back through it to see for themselves.

 

edited

Edited September 11, 2008 by jonni2bad

[MrShed]

Hang fire!

 

How could you fake a reference when you give the name of your referee as PC Plod and the address as the local nick to your potential employer?

 

The employer then just writes to PC Plod for a reference.

 

How do you fake that?

 

Because lets be realistic. Employers dont write to PC Plod for a reference, they write to previous employers, and here is an example.

 

I am Mr A Fraudster.

 

Oh yes, here are my two references:

 

Fake Company A,

A mates address,

Fraudtown

 

Fake Company B,

Another mates address

Steal me please-upon-Hull

[MrShed]

what if you dont have a passport OR a driving licence?

 

does the lack of photo id suddenly make you unemployable?

 

In my opinion, yes it absolutely does.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

what if you dont have a passport OR a driving licence?

 

does the lack of photo id suddenly make you unemployable?

 

Excellent point.

 

And with some employers this will/has been the case.

edited

Edited September 11, 2008 by jonni2bad

[MrShed]

Lol Al I do so enjoy these tussles, where I feel you are riding so close to the edge of insanity I cant even begin to think how to counter the most unfounded arguments

[Weird Al Yankovic]

In my opinion, yes it absolutely does.

 

There we have it then!

 

Just because somebody doesn't drive or go abroad on holiday they are now unable to work in the UK according to shedsy!

 

I can't take anymore!!

[elche]

 

I suggest members just read back through it to see for themselves.

 

And I showed you up on a previous thread.

 

WAY 2-0 elche 'Walter Mitty'

 

Not sure if you actually read what I write WAY or just what you think I write.

 

Your right let members read what I have said on this thread and I think those that know anything about employment law will know what the real score is!

 

Oh and BTW you STILL seem to be ignoring the practical effect of s.15 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 when read in tandem with the RRA 1976, and I'm waiting for you to explain why the largest employment law consultancy in the UK give exactly the same advice on this specific point as I do, and why we are all wrong but WAY is right.

 

I'm sure your getting round to explaining this point WAY?

 

No walter mitty's here mate ...... oh yeah there is one.... and he ain't from Argentina

[MrShed]

Oh and BTW you STILL seem to be ignoring the practical effect of s.15 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 when read in tandem with the RRA 1976, and I'm waiting for you to explain why the largest employment law consultancy in the UK give exactly the same advice on this specific point as I do.

 

 

Its ok elche, hes still ignoring a few of mine as well - you arent unique