NatWest Credit Card & Intrum Justica

[Missy Allen]

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[bigegg]

is there part of scan04 missing on your copy?

 

what you have posted appears to be an application form with no prescribed terms (and is no guarantee that a contrat was formed), and unrelated t&cs (which might belong to ayones agreement, since what appears to be a signature box has been removed).

 

im no expert, but i would say that what you have been sent is unenforceable in court.

[Missy Allen]

Do I now send them a letter telling them that?

[bigegg]

i should.

 

curlybens letter seems appropriate:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated **********, the contents of which are noted

 

You attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On xx/xx/2007 I requested ********supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ******** have failed to comply with my request and have totally ignored my written reminders sent via recorded delivery of this fact. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you or *******, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify s61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ********* become compliant with my request. As ****** are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

• All charges levied since ******** 2007 be removed from the account and further charges cease until such time as ******* comply fully with my original request or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
  
• All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file
  
• All collection activities by your company cease with immediate effect until ******** comply with my request from ********* 2007 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
  

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[bigegg]

take out the bit about reminders

[Missy Allen]

Thank you

[bigegg]

you're welcome.

don't forget to update us

[Missy Allen]

I have now received a letter from Intrum Justica informing me that they are passing the matter back to NatWest. What does this mean?

[bigegg]

it means:

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

...

 

YOU WIN!!!!!!!!!

 

Intrum Justitia has given up.

 

 

 

Some other debt collector will probably start sending you threatening letters now.

 

All you have to do is send the "bemused" letter to them (I'll post it up if/when needed) and they should crawl back under THEIR rock.

 

Forget about the alleged debt - don't pay anything towards it.

Unless NATWEST suddenly discover the CCA at a later date (which is unlikely now - about 100 to 1 chance at a guess) you now have an unenforceable ALLEGED debt - nobody can make you pay anything!

 

Use this months payment to buy yourself something nice.

 

And congratulations!

[bigegg]

42man posted the "bemused" letter in post #3 of this thread

[cashins]

I have now received a letter from Intrum Justica informing me that they are passing the matter back to NatWest. What does this mean?

 

Got one of those 3 days ago.

 

Did you like the "any further correspondence should be sent to the above named creditor."

 

Bet you can't wait......

 

David

[Missy Allen]

omg I can't believe that.

 

I would like to say a big thank you to everyone who gives such valuable advice on this site. Thank you. I hope to be able to give some myself having had some experience and feeling a bit more confident now. Thank you.

[Missy Allen]

I have now received a further letter from NatWest stating that they have supplied a copy of the CCA and they do not consider the account to be in dispute ad will be persuing me for full repayment. However, I have read that the Agreement requires a signature if taken out before December 2004 - my account was taken out in 2001. Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to proceed.

 

Thank you

[cashins]

However, I have read that the Agreement requires a signature if taken out before December 2004 - my account was taken out in 2001.

Not really gone into on-line apps but I think you are correct in that.

 

David

[bigegg]

Personally, I would write along the lines of the following:

 

"Dear Natwest,

After taking legal advice, I do not believe the application form which you have sent me is a valid CCA.

Under section (????) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, you are NOT permitted to use any other paperwork beyond I have already been sent as evidence of this alleged debt, and I welcome a judge's opinion as to the validity of your so-called "agreement".

I therefore consider this matter closed. I will not respond to any other correspondence except a summons to court"

 

I can't remember which section of the CCA1974 it is, but basically it says that if they send you paperwork in response to a CCA request, then that's ALL they're allowed to use in court. And what they've sent you is not enforceable (IMHO).

 

So basically, what I would do is say "put up or putt off"

[btonbadger]

Subbing as I'm at the same position with Natwest as Missy Allen.

[Missy Allen]

I have received a further letter from NatWest - the same as the last one and attach a copy. I have written to them stating that if they take the matter to court they can only rely on the evidence they have provided. Should I point out to them that they require a signature not just a tick in a box on the internet application or should I just ignore them and see what happens?

 

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/bernadetteallen/scan0006-1.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/bernadetteallen/scan0005-1.jpg

[womble72]

Hi Miss Allen,

 

Is that the only paperwork the Natwest have sent you from a cca request.

 

There are no terms or condtions or most importantly your signature.

 

I am not to sure what the chance of them taking you to county court will be and they might back off because they just have not kept your records.

 

Making it unenforcable !

 

It seems the crapwest have lost everbodys paperwork including mine.

 

Good luck

 

Womble

[cashins]

I am not to sure what the chance of them taking you to county court will be and they might back off because they just have not kept your records.

 

 

Pretty remote with no CCA, although occassionaly with them one does come out of the woodwork ages later.

 

Good news is, a lot of the older ones are russbish even if they do find it.

 

Is yours enforceable Womble?

 

David

[Missy Allen]

Hi Womble

 

They sent me a copy of the CCA together with T&C's but I took the card out over the internet and apparently at that time a signature was required. It wasn't until some months later that the law changed and it was acceptable for there to be a tick in the box only. I'm not sure if the T&C's are the ones that were applicable at the time of the application. Unless someone gives some advice to the contrary I'm going to wait and see what happens.

[Missy Allen]

Hi People

 

Yesterday I received a letter from Frederickson International Ltd. They are now chasing the debt on behalf of Royal Bank of Scotland although the original card was taken out with NatWest.

 

They say they have been instructed by RBS to collect the outstanding balance. Do I send them the same letter that I sent Intrum Justica?

 

Thanks

 

Missy Allen

[Missy Allen]

I sent a further letter to Frederickson International with regard to not being given a copy of the enforceable Credit Agreement and I have received a letter back stating that I need to request this from their client but I need to ring them to discuss discharging the outstanding balance. What should I do now?

Missy Allen

[abbacus]

My OH received exactly the same letter from NatWest in 2007 and since then it has been passed around to AIC, Intrum Justitia, Regal Collections and Apex - all of whom she has ignored. No payments have been made. Just waiting for it to become time-barred now. OH's Solicitor says if NatWest had the original signed agreement they would have gone to Court by now.

[Missy Allen]

Abbacus

 

Thanks very much for that I will just not respond to anything. Is it 7 years before the matter is time barred providing there has been no communication?

 

Missy Allen

[cashins]

6 years, (Scotland 5 years), with no payment or admission of the debt.

 

David