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Parking ticket..but a few laws seem to be ignored?


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Hi

 

I recently received a parking ticket when parked outside GL1 leisure Centre in Gloucester. It is listed officially as Albert Street.

 

There are a few things that seem to contravene the law in my humble and naïve view and I would appreciate some guidance from those with more knowledge on this subject. I will list what I think is wrong and then hopefully someone can help?

 

1. The area is block paved and so there is no kerb as such to denote the side of the highway. How can the lines be the correct distance from the edge of the highway (kerb) if there isn't one?

2. The lines look "DIY" i.e. they are very thin and do not look like normal double yellow signs. I am returning tomorrow to measure them as I found the information for thickness etc via this forum

3. There is a T-bar where the double yellow lines on the main road end. i.e. The line is straight on the main road and then curves to follow the side road (Albert Street) for about 3 feet. The T-bar is clearly painted in thick yellow paint. The "DIY" lines then continue on (someone has clearly painted them in paler yellow paint) I have included the image named Lines1

4. The lines continue around the road but there is no kerrb. Just a line of silver bollards and they get a bit wavy and wayward and don't look as if they will meet the legal dimensions. (the adjoining paved area belongs to a Public House called The Famous Pint Pot and has table and chairs where smokers sit).

4.The lines then just end with NO T-bar. There is a then a line of private parking bays for businesses, some of the bays are for disabled drivers.

5. There was never a side on the one side of the road but one has now appeared but it also appears to be a DIY job and I cannot believe it meets the requisite dimensions etc/ Again I will measure it tomorrow and also photograph it. I have searched the sign data at opsi dot gov

I cannot actually find the correct sign for "AT ANYTIME" perhaps someone has a link to that sign with the correct size layout etc.

6. The PCN says "A penalty charge of £70 is now payable and must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days......etc" It does not say offence anywhere, it just lists "Date of Contravention" it does not have "Date of Issue" but I guess it is legal by saying "Served On"??? I read on here that is must not say "penalty" as this is the same as "fine" which is not permitted.

 

I tried to post the pictures but it says I must make 5 posts first. I would attach them but that has also been disabled on this version of VBulletin.

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I also think they may have put the incorrect address on the PCN. It says Albert Street, but on the map that is about 100 yards further on. I will check a more detailed OS map when I get the chance

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Here are the images now

 

To the left is the corner of the main road and the continuation to the right shows the wishy washy lines that go onto the block paved area.

 

 

Lines1.jpg

 

These look too thin and too far apart to me. I will check the measurements as soon as possible.

Lines2.jpg

 

End of the lines where they adjoin a parking bay

 

Lines3.jpg

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I also think they may have put the incorrect address on the PCN. It says Albert Street, but on the map that is about 100 yards further on. I will check a more detailed OS map when I get the chance

 

Nope, it appears that the street name is correct :mad:

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Please excuse my ignorance but who should I contact to obtain the TRO?

 

The council. there are several posts here on TROs, the legislation that enables anyone to get a free copy (and that says that anyone who obstructs you is committing an offense). do NOT rely on the council to send you electronic copies that are complete. best to go fetch yourself.

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The PCN looks compliant from what I can see and the lines are far better than a lot that get enforced. Your best bet would be to check that the area you parked in had a relevant Traffic Order for the yellow lines.

 

So I can just question the council (phone at first) and ask for the TRO for Albert Street, Gloucester?

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GLOUCESTER CITY COUNCIL

(Leisure Centre Area) (Traffic Regulation)

(Consolidation and Amendment) Order 1980

Notice is hereby given that the Gloucester City Council (being

a District Council for the purposes of the Local Government

Act 1972), exercising the undermentioned powers of the

Gloucestershire County Council under arrangements made

pursuant to section 101 of the said Local Government Act

1972, made an Order under sections 1 (1), (2) and (3) and 84D (1)

of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967, as amended by

Part IX of the Transport Act 1968, Schedule 19 to the Local

Government Act 1972 and Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic

Act 1974.

The effect of the Order will be:

(a) To prohibit the waiting of vehicles at all times in certain

lengths of the following roads: Albert Street, Prince Street

and the peripheral road at the Leisure Centre.

(b) To prohibit the waiting of vehicles between 8 a.m. and

6.30 p.m. on Mondays to Saturdays in certain lengths of

the peripheral road at the Leisure Centre.

© To limit the waiting of vehicles to two hours in any four

hours between 8 a.m. and 6.30 p.m. on Mondays to

Saturdays in certain lengths of the following roads:

Albert Street and Prince Street.

(rf)Tq retain the following road as a one-way street with

vehicles allowed to proceed only in the direction indicated.

Length of road

in the City of

Gloucester

(1)

The peripheral

at the Leisure

Centre

Direction

(2)

From a point 30 metres south-west of the

junction of the south-east and north-east

sections of the road shown in colum 1 in an

"anti-clockwise" direction towards Nettleton

Road to the junction of the north-west and

south-west sections of this road.

Exceptions are contained in the Order to enable a vehicle to

wait upon the direction or with the permission of a police

constable in uniform or traffic warden or for so long as may be

necessary for a person to board or alight from the vehicle or to

enable goods to be loaded onto or unloaded from the vehicle

or to enable the vehicles to be used in connection with any

wedding, funeral, building operation or demolition, the removal

of any obstruction to traffic and the maintenance of any of the

lengths of road or the services therein. An exception is also

A4

provided for the vehicle used in the service of a local authority

in pursuance of statutory powers or duties. A further exception

is provided to (a), (b) and © in the case of a disabled person's

vehicle.

A copy of the Order, together with a map showing the

effect of the Order, may be seen at the Office of the City

Engineer, Cedar House, 8 Spa Road, Gloucester or the Guildhall,

Eastgate Street, Gloucester, from Mondays to Fridays

during normal office hours.

The Order comes into operation on 18th February 1980.

Anyone wishing to question the validity of the Order or any

provision contained in it on the grounds that it is not within

the powers conferred by the Road Traffic Regulation Act

1967, as amended by Part IX of the Transport Act 1968,

Schedule 19 to the Local Government Act 1937 and Schedule 6

to the Road Traffic Act 1974, or on the grounds that any

requirement of the Act or any instrument made under it has

not been complied with in relation to the Order, may within

6 weeks from 18th February 1980 apply to the High Court

for this purpose.

H. R. T. Shackleton, Chief Executive Officer

Guildhall,

Gloucester.

18th February 1980

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Well definitely go and get a copy of the full TRO !! (am assuming G&M has posted up the 'in force' TRO. G&M where did you locate this ?)). They have issued under TMA and the TRO is so ancient it doesn't even take account the RTA 1991 (which enables decriminalised parking) much less mention the actual TMA legislation. Heck it even mentions Traffic Wardens when its should CEOs. If this is typical of the TROs in this town it looks like free parking all round to me - but TROs need to be checked first. Either this one got through (so dilgence poor) or the council just did not bother with its statutory duties.Please post up a picture of the reverse side of the TRO as well. I would get as many TROs as I could, arrange a group of friends so you can eat the elephant more easily.

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Well definitely go and get a copy of the full TRO !! (am assuming G&M has posted up the 'in force' TRO. G&M where did you locate this ?)). They have issued under TMA and the TRO is so ancient it doesn't even take account the RTA 1991 (which enables decriminalised parking) much less mention the actual TMA legislation. Heck it even mentions Traffic Wardens when its should CEOs. If this is typical of the TROs in this town it looks like free parking all round to me - but TROs need to be checked first. Either this one got through (so dilgence poor) or the council just did not bother with its statutory duties.Please post up a picture of the reverse side of the TRO as well. I would get as many TROs as I could, arrange a group of friends so you can eat the elephant more easily.

 

Thanks to all..

 

The local authority are giving me the right run around on this one. Both of the locations listed no longer exist in terms of holding the TRO. One of them has been demolished and the other hasn't held the plans for about 15 years according to the very helpful lady I spoke with.

 

I am trying to speak to the person responsible at the Highways Department but they are definitely stalling, acting (or actually are) stupid!!

 

I'm hanging on the phone as I type and getting nowhere.

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sounds like they are in a right mess. pay a personal visit and take a print out of this Local Government Act 1972 (c.70) - Statute Law Database often there is a split in council - a Parking Manager responsible for enforcement and a Highways manager responsible for signs. Best way to find out is probably too google up minutes of council meetings. when you go for the TRO - just tell them you are coming to get it - make sure you let them know that you want to check the copy with the original page by page. It may be there is a more recent one that the one google provided for G&M so lets not count chickens here. On the other hand if they were on top of the TROs they wouldn't be messing you around on the phone (barring the usual incompetence reasons).

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This just gets more ludicrous by the minute!!

 

I just spoke with a very helpful guy in the Highways Department and when I mentioned Albert Street and 1980 he almost choked because he has one for 2005 but it covers Albert Street only and NOT the area outside GL1 Leisure Centre. :eek:

 

He then added that he believes the area outside GL1 may NOT be Public Highway and therefore the Local Authority should not be issuing tickets on that section of road. He is checking to see if a TRO exists for that area but after searching that area i.e. the streets, businesses etc. in that area there does not appear to be a valid TRO for the area concerned.

 

Of course he may end up finding it but I'll keep you informed.

 

Thanks again

 

Changy :grin:

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Okay, it now gets even crazier!!!

 

I have a copy of the TRO for Albert Street, Gloucester. My car was NOT parked in the area defined as, and covered by the TRO for Albert Street, Gloucester. They entered Albert Street on the PCN so I would assume that I must violate the TRO for Albert Street? If my assumption is correct then the PCN has been issued incorrectly and is therefore invalid...please feel free to tell me I am wrong...hopefully I'm not?

 

I also have a copy of a TRO for GL1 Leisure Centre but this only describes "Parking Bays" and Pay and Display parking. The area defined on the map as the area pertaining to the TRO is incorrect...the map is wrong. Even it is was correct then there is no mention of Double Yellow Lines etc, it only refers to the Parking bays, Pay and Display, length of stay etc. There is no mention of the kerb and the area covered by the restrictions.

 

I'm not sure how I should attach the plans and TROs because they are in PDF form

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oooh, refunds !!! keep us posted. Does GCC outsource to NCP by any chance ?

 

Yes, I think they do. The car park..what there is left of it I'm sure has NCP on the sign. I'm there tonight so I'll check it out.

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This a good'un innit!

 

Big up 'mean' (for a change, lol) for finding the tro. My browser didn't get past the list of 12.

 

For everyone, in every Council thread, Council website is first port of call.

 

Big up OP too for persistence.

 

I have a little issue but I am unsure of my ground (as I will always say when so). I'm not sure the City Council can make the order? The enforcement authority for on-street is the County Council. It may be that the order was made before that became the case but surely some amendment was due? It would not be unusual for a Council to have failed to have wrestled correctly with the balls-up of the TMA.

 

Any thoughts? Maybe that's why they are being obstructive?

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Yes, I think they do. The car park..what there is left of it I'm sure has NCP on the sign. I'm there tonight so I'll check it out.

 

Why am I not surprised NCP is in the picture... Ting, there is a quote about Denmark that may apply....

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This a good'un innit!

 

Big up 'mean' (for a change, lol) for finding the tro. My browser didn't get past the list of 12.

 

For everyone, in every Council thread, Council website is first port of call.

 

Big up OP too for persistence.

 

I have a little issue but I am unsure of my ground (as I will always say when so). I'm not sure the City Council can make the order? The enforcement authority for on-street is the County Council. It may be that the order was made before that became the case but surely some amendment was due? It would not be unusual for a Council to have failed to have wrestled correctly with the balls-up of the TMA.

 

Any thoughts? Maybe that's why they are being obstructive?

 

You could be pretty close to the truth Ting and thanks for your input.

 

I have done a bit more digging and have made an ally in the Highways Department. Here is what I have found.

 

The area around GL1 changed significantly when they demolished the old centre and then built the new one. There is a Street Called Cambridge Street which is an official part of the Highway and is Subject to its own TRO. However, this so called street is a forecourt of a Public House with seats and benches for dining outside in the summer (meh...what summer) or for smokers. The area covered by this TRO does not cover the area where I was parked. If it did, then the PCN is incorrect as I should have been issued the PCN as having parked in Cambridge Street.

 

The PCN was issued and you can all clearly see it lists me as being parked in Albert Street. This is not correct because I was parked in the area covered by the GL1 Leisure Centre TRO. This latter TRO DOES NOT mention anything about "Prohibition of Waiting" it just mentions about parking bays and paying for a ticket etc. The controlled hours for this TRO are 09:00 - 15:00 Mondays to Saturdays. I was issued the PCN at 18:15 so this is outside of the controlled hours.

 

A PCN for Off street parking is issued by Gloucester City Council whilst for Street Parking or violation of a "Prohibition of Waiting" rule then it is Gloucestershire County Council who is responsible. The PCN says that "in either case the enforcement authority is Gloucestershire County Council with Gloucester City Council acting as its agent". They seem to want it both ways but is this allowed?

Edited by changy
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