speeding: who was driving?

[uk_geezer]

My Wife received Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) yesterday for allegation of 35 in a 30 zone.

 

Date of alleged offence was SEVENTY TWO days ago.

 

Only my Wife and I drive the car in question.

 

Neither of us can recall who was driving the car that particular day on that particular stretch of road (it WAS 72 days ago for heavens sake).

 

The NIP requires her by Law to say who was driving, but only allows her to declare she WAS or WAS NOT the driver; it does not allow for a GENUINE case of don't know.

 

This is not a [problem]; we genuinely cannot remember who was driving (who could after 72 days???)

 

What can/should she do?

 

Thanks in advance.

[lamma]

Who is registered keeper and when were they registered - look at docref date on the V5C.

First NIP in the chain has to arrive in 14 days unless there is 'an overlap'.

[scousegeezer]

Lamma,

Whats an overlap - never heard of it. Law states the NIP has to arrive within fourteen days - Interpretaion Act states first class mail takes two days to arrive at its destination. Therefore if a NIP is dated on the thirteenth day after the offence, when it is sent out, then it is not legally served and cannot be enforced.

[lamma]

on overlap of dates with the issuing process. Overlap with registration of car or change of address details at DVLA. the 14 days thing disappears then. In those circumstances it can be enforced.

[scousegeezer]

Lamma,

Right, I get it now. Its just that I am used to that process being referred to as a nomination. Old keeper states now sold vehicle to Joe Bloggs. Therefore fine for the [problematic] to send NIP to Joe Bloggs. Thanks.

[uk_geezer]

We have had this car for almost 3 years and registered to my Wife, as I'm the secondary driver; I ride a moped to work, and don't use the car anywhere near as often as she does.

[lamma]

have you been at the same address for that time or have you changed address lately ? and informed the DVLA ? if so we need the timeline of that.

 

You sure it is the first NIP you got and not a reminder - though 72 days seems a heck of a long time for that.

[Rob S]

The police have to serve the NIP within 14 days of the alleged offence. If it is served outside of this time frame then it is too late and the case can be successfully defended. The only exception to this is in relation to company cars or where they contact a registered keeper and they are informed that the vehicle has been sold. In such circumstances they can issue a subsequent NIP ouside of the 14 day time limit, though the first NIP still has to be issued within 14 days. By issued, the registered keeper has to receive it within the 14 days.

 

If your wife has been the registered keeper for 3 years then it is puzzling why she didn't get it before. I would advise you to keep the envelope that the NIP arrived in and compare the address on it to the address shown on the V5 (vehicle registration document) and see if it matches.

 

The RAC also advise sending the following letter in circumstances such as yours:-

 

Dear Officer ******,

 

CVVVVVVVV - Notice of Intended Prosecution

 

I received your letter dated *********, the references for which are detailed above. I have enclosed a copy of the Notice sent to me recently, for ease of cross-reference.

 

You have written to me because I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle mentioned in your Notice. My address is correct as per the details at DVLA, and the vehicle was not a Company car, and was neither hired nor borrowed.

 

No Officer spoke to me at the time of the alleged offence, and no accident took place. Also, no Police person has spoken with me at or near the time and place detailed in your Notice. The written Notice is the first indication from you of any intention to prosecute.

 

Your Notice details the alleged offence as VV:VVhrs on *********. The Notice is dated ********, and it came to me by post, received on ********. At the time of opening the mail item from you, I signed and dated the Notice in a space at the top of the page.

 

Including the day of the alleged offence, this was **th day from the date detailed in your Notice.

 

Following discussions with the RAC Legal Helpline, please note that the Notice cannot be acted upon as it is time-expired. For this Notice to have been valid, it ought to have been with me within 14 days of the alleged offence.

 

It was suggested I write back to you immediately with these comments.

 

Yours sincerely

 

VVVVVVVVV

Registered Keeper

 

The 14 days the police have is an absolute and it is defined in law.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Rob S

[lamma]

there is also an exemption for relevant 'DVLA updates' getting in the way.

[JonCris]

One of the reasons the NIP should be issued promptly is to avoid the very sort of circumstances as described by the OP especially if there's more than 1 driver Who the hell can be expected to remember who drove over 2 months ago

 

If the circumstances are as described then the someone who authorized it's issue is taking the wee.

 

I should add to the letter the final comment of "as to how either I or my wife are expected to remember who drove over 2 months ago is beyond me"

[lamma]

we need to know if there has been a relevant change of address....

Also the OP needs to make very sure they don't fall foul of a S172 offense despite not knowing.

[uk_geezer]

We did change address in February, and it turns out the car is still registered at the previous address; an oversight on our part.

 

Although, the insurance is at the new address (because it was due in March); so I am presuming they have obtained our current address from the insurance database? In which case surely they should have issued the NIP in the 14-day period you guys refer to?

 

Irrespective, we have a redirection service with Royal Mail, so if they DID send a NIP to the old address, it SHOULD have been redirected to our current address, shouldn't it?

 

Additionally, there is nothing on the NIP to suggest it is a REMINDER.

 

I have just telephoned the number on the NIP and a woman told me we should write in and request the "photgraphic/video evidence" in order to asist us in identifying the driver; aka incriminating one of us.

 

Naturally they want blood by any means.

 

Any suggestions as to what to do next?

[lamma]

do not use the word 'evidence' when asking for photos.

they do just want your money - start checking out 'reasonable diligence'.

[Rob S]

It's also worth a google search on "fightback forums" and taking a look in the speeding section and posting up there.

 

As Lamma said, ask for a photo for the purpose of assisting you in the identification of the driver at the time of the alleged offence. If you ask for "evidence" they will tell you they can't supply any evidence until such time as you enter a not guilty plea and it goes to court.

 

It might also be worth asking them when they first issued a NIP and whether or not they sent it to your old address.

[JonCris]

sorry change of address or not they are going to have problems justifying a delay of 70 days They really are trying to abuse the system & after all when they tried harder they found you didn't they

 

I should send the letter already suggested & await their response in which they may give some reason for their inordinate delay.

 

I think attempting to ID the driver at this stage could be premature & remove an important plank of any defence

[lamma]

as long as the S172 deadline does not pass.

[Rob S]

sorry change of address or not they are going to have problems justifying a delay of 70 days They really are trying to abuse the system & after all when they tried harder they found you didn't they

 

I should send the letter already suggested & await their response in which they may give some reason for their inordinate delay.

 

I think attempting to ID the driver at this stage could be premature & remove an important plank of any defence

 

If they sent out the first NIP within the 14 day period then they have complied with the law Jon. They could argue that because the OP had failed to register his new address that it has taken them some time to track him down. The crux is the first issue of the NIP. If they failed to send it out within the 14 day time scale then it is game over. If they did send it out within the timescale then it is game on.

 

As lamma says, watch out for section 172, failing to nominate the driver, but I think with the time it has taken them to locate the OP that there should be plenty of latitude on this point.

[lamma]

do not expect ANY latitude on the S172 request. I suggest that that would be foolish. Staying within S172 and trying for a time-out may be an option but you have to know what you are doing.

[scousegeezer]

UK Geezer,

Everything depends on when you moved from your old address. You dont give a date that the offence is rcorded for- so presumably towards the end of May, around 20th or so.

 

a) When did you move

b) When was the date of the offence

c) When did the mail forwarding from you old address to your new address cease, or is it still going on.

d) When did you notify the DVLA of your new address.

e) What is the date at the top of the NIP, the date it was sent out.

 

I ask all of these questions as they are pertinent. The Road Traffic Act only allows Camera Safety Partnerships to use the information supplied by the DVLA, to send out NIP's. In otherwords the name and address of the registered keeper. The reg. kpr. then has to nominate the driver at the time of the offence, if it was not themselves. The insurance database cannot be used to trace possible drivers, Data Protection stops this from happening. The only other way that the keeper of a vehicle can be traced is by using local information databases. Has the vehicle been stopped , who was driving at the time, did they admit to being the owner of the vehicle etc. If you have registered the vehicle at your new address between the offence date and receiving the NIP, they may have run another check with DVLA and then found your new address. Mystery solved. Only you know all the answers to the above questions. Much more detailed advice can be found on the Pepipoo fight back forum.

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer.

[JonCris]

do not expect ANY latitude on the S172 request. I suggest that that would be foolish. Staying within S172 and trying for a time-out may be an option but you have to know what you are doing.

 

Despite 172 if you genuinely don't recall because of the passage of time who the driver was then you cannot just nominate anyone. To do so would be perjury

 

Of course it will only be effective if the court accepts your argument which as we are discussing the passage of over 2 months since the alleged offence I think they would be unreasonable not to

[lamma]

You may get lucky and get dual charged with speeding and S172 - provided you have provided the information then a dual charge is a chance to have some fun and beat up the CPS.

But you need to know what you are doing. You should fully expect a lot of pressure from them to make you 'cough' - they want money !

[crem]

They could argue that because the OP had failed to register his new address that it has taken them some time to track him down.

 

No wonder the police crime solving rate is so low if they would think it would be regarded as a "reasonable argument" that it would take 70 days to trace an English resident, who wasn't trying to hide, simply by searching a couple of databases they have ready access to.

[lamma]

They have this get out for the 14 days if the conditions fit.

[uk_geezer]

a) When did you move

February 2008

b) When was the date of the offence

26th May 2008

c) When did the mail forwarding from you old address to your new address cease, or is it still going on.

Ongoing (took a 12 month redirection contract)

d) When did you notify the DVLA of your new address.

Today; having only today realised the oversight.

e) What is the date at the top of the NIP, the date it was sent out.

5th August 2008

 

 

Sorry for retrospective answers; I tried to initially include all information I considered relevant.

 

 

Sorry for late post tonight; didn't finish work until midnight.

 

 

Thanks for all replies thus far; I appreciate everyone's input.

[uk_geezer]

I telephoned the number on the NIP and explained we couldn't remember who was driving, and the lady said we could have a copy of the photos.

 

Having now seen them (taken from the front), they show it was I who was driving.

 

What really annoys me is it was 35 in a 30, which means I wasn't purposely speeding; if I was I would surely have been going faster wouldn't I?. As it happens I do not purposely speed; EVER. What has obviously happened is I have taken my eyes off the speedo, or the gradient of the road has caught me unawares. And if it had been a "REAL" cop, they might have pulled me over and warned me (like they do on the TV shows, even with SERIOUS speeders). But we all know that it is a money-making [problem], and North Wales are renowned for being the worse. That's the last time I go to Prestatyn.......

 

I guess I will just have to TAKE the 3 points and GIVE the £60.

 

Thanks to everyone who contributed, and keep up the fight for everyone else.