Helllppp - Honours Student Loans

[xray2]

BTW we submitted a N244 which is being heard immediately prior so does this change the evidence submission dates?

They have also subimtted an N244 to amend the POC's which they had got wrong.

[Lula]

they shoould have submitted evidence to you and the court 14 days prior. Have you got your bundle ready just in case, or are you still awaiting paperwork which the other party have yet to disclose?

[xray2]

hi,

 

we submitted evidence attached to our N244. We have asked for legible copies of the agreements, notice of assignment and copies of default notice they say was made this year. We have asked for strict proof.

 

They keep banging on about providing us with info under the CCA but we asked for it under the CPR. They have admitted copies of agreements are not signed by both parties but argue this does not matter because copies are not evidence and we have not been prejudiced by the fact that they are not signed by the other party and that they can omit from copy documents the signature under consumer credit regs 1983.

They have also admitted that copies are not legible in places but are legible in all material effects.

 

Further in letters they claim a default notice was sent on xxx/08 but we have one from almost 6 years prior obviously they cannot issue two so are now only claiming one.

 

The default notice also includes penalty charges so would this not mean it is unlawful?

 

Thanks

[42man]

If they have not provided anything under the CPR18, then request the judge to dismiss it.....

 

If they have admitted there are no copies, then the debt is unenforceable....you need to completely dispute the total debt !! statements aren't enough either as they can easily be falsified...I know of one cagger who put the opposition solicitors name and address using photoshop on some bank statements (not to defraud but simply to demonstrate that anybody can do it)....

 

Without a copy of the agreement with the prescribed terms they are stuffed...

[xray2]

Thanks They do have a copy it just isnt very legible. What they do not have a copy of is a notice of assignment though they provide an example of what one would look like rofl!

[xray2]

Part18 does not apply to Small Claims track

[xray2]

They have also stated on their POC that they issued a default on xxxx and then in evidence admit to an earlier one within a 6 year time frame .. that means two default notices I know the CCA says a default notice can only be issued once but can't find the relevant part of the act grrrrr!

[xray2]

Do agreements covered by the CCA have to be signed by both parties to be enforceable and if so does anyone know the relevant section of the Act? We have been provided with copies but only one is signed by both parties.

 

Also notice of assignment there is not one I assume this comes under the CCA too anyone know the relevant section.

 

Thanks

[pt2537]

Do agreements covered by the CCA have to be signed by both parties to be enforceable and if so does anyone know the relevant section of the Act? We have been provided with copies but only one is signed by both parties.

 

Also notice of assignment there is not one I assume this comes under the CCA too anyone know the relevant section.

 

Thanks

for an agreement to be enforceable, it must when placed before the court contain( Not embody) the prescribed terms per sched 6 col 2 SI1983/1553 and must be signed by the debtors or debtors if there are more than one

 

as long as the agreement conforms to this as a minimum that would be enforceable

 

with regards to the NOA, it is governed by the Law of Property Act 1925 and the law of Equity

 

i hope this helps

[xray2]

Thanks - I realised after I posted that I was after the Law of Property

 

As to the agreements they are pretty much illegible all 3 signed by the debtor but only one by the creditor. Had thought they had to be signed by both parties

 

Thanks again

[pt2537]

Thanks - I realised after I posted that I was after the Law of Property

 

As to the agreements they are pretty much illegible all 3 signed by the debtor but only one by the creditor. Had thought they had to be signed by both parties

 

Thanks again

no probs, they may be also able to over come the illegibility issues by providing a typed copy if it goes to court

[xray2]

Hi

Its in court tomorrow . They are saying it is on microfiche does this constitute an original?

 

They have no notice of assignment or any real proof of purchase of the debt. They just refer to this is an example of what would have been sent!!

 

Also, they should have submitted evidence within 14 days of hearing to both parties but this only arrived today!

 

They have put in an N244 to amend their POC due to admin errors but have made admin errors on the N244!

 

argggghhhhhhhh

 

PS They have also claimed to have issued TWO default notices within a 6 year period - is this not unlawful too?

Edited September 9, 2008 by xray2
added question

[pt2537]

Hi

Its in court tomorrow . They are saying it is on microfiche does this constitute an original?

 

They have no notice of assignment or any real proof of purchase of the debt. They just refer to this is an example of what would have been sent!!

 

Also, they should have submitted evidence within 14 days of hearing to both parties but this only arrived today!

 

They have put in an N244 to amend their POC due to admin errors but have made admin errors on the N244!

 

argggghhhhhhhh

 

PS They have also claimed to have issued TWO default notices within a 6 year period - is this not unlawful too?

 

they would only need to issue a notice of assignment if the debt was sold to another company other than the original creditor

 

it is not unlawful to issue more than two defaults either, the 1974 act allows that where a default is served and the breach contained within the default is remedied then the default is taken to have never happened, so it follows that they would need to issue a second, third fourth etc depending upon how many breaches there have been and how many times its been remedied

 

they can over come this issue of failing to provide the evidence quite easily and the judge would most likely just allow it as this is not an uncommon thing that happens , plus if it prejudiced you in any way it could be over come by an adjournment to allow you to read the evidence before the hearing is restarted

 

what admin errors have they made?

 

it seems that much of what you have put forward is easy to over come and would not place their claim in any real difficulty

[xray2]

The first default was not remedied and a second issued therefore I thought this breached the DP laws? Also, penalty charges have been added and interest accrued on them all included in default notice.

 

The original creditor did indeed sell the debt but we have no notice of assignment of that debt and it would appear neither do they.

 

In the N244 the solicitors have ticked they are the claimant - does this mean there are now two claimants or is this another admin error. On there order they have asked to change dates they had made in error but they have also changed the amount too. The POC do not conform to para .3 of Practice Direction 16 of the CPR in that it does not contain account numbers, methods calculated, copies of agreements and default or proof they own the loans.

[tinkerbell20]

no probs, they may be also able to over come the illegibility issues by providing a typed copy if it goes to court

 

 

What if the signature is illegible or blacked out?:?

[pt2537]

What if the signature is illegible or blacked out?:?

Well, tricky one

 

if it is illegible and cannot be shown as being your signature then you may have an argument, however, if i were counsel for the claimant i would seek under cross examination to show that there is , on the balance of probabilities, sufficient evidence to show that the signature was infact yours

 

there are many ways in which this can be done and remember lying in court would put you in major difficulties;)

[tinkerbell20]

Well, tricky one

 

if it is illegible and cannot be shown as being your signature then you may have an argument, however, if i were counsel for the claimant i would seek under cross examination to show that there is , on the balance of probabilities, sufficient evidence to show that the signature was infact yours

 

there are many ways in which this can be done and remember lying in court would put you in major difficulties;)

 

 

So virtually all credit card agreements are likely to be held to be enforceable then? They don't actually have to produce a signed piece of paper containing the prescribed terms anymore ? All they have to do is say that on the balance of probabilities you would have signed that reconstructed agreement or illegible copy which they have kindly provided the court a transcript of that just happens to contain the prescribed terms? So the Creditors are right with the stance they are taking on the Basil Rankine case inn that executed agreements begin as the Credit Agreements which are sent to cardholders when they receive their credit cards.

[pt2537]

So virtually all credit card agreements are likely to be held to be enforceable then? They don't actually have to produce a signed piece of paper containing the prescribed terms anymore ? All they have to do is say that on the balance of probabilities you would have signed that reconstructed agreement or illegible copy which they have kindly provided the court a transcript of that just happens to contain the prescribed terms? So the Creditors are right with the stance they are taking on the Basil Rankine case inn that executed agreements begin as the Credit Agreements which are sent to cardholders when they receive their credit cards.

with all due respect, that is not what i said at all!!!!

 

If the signature is illegible, then, and lets not forget the fact that a signature is normally quite illegible anyway by virtue, counsel would first off ask you "is that your Signature?" yes or no. if you say you are not sure, then the next question is going to likely be " do you have any thing which we can compare them to?" now its likely that you will have signed something and /or the counsel will have something with your signature on it to compare to and all im saying is that the other side may be able to tip the scales to convince the judge that it is your signature

 

now on the other hand if the signature is just a black blob then of course the other side are indifficulty that goes without saying

 

How many times do i need to say it,in fact i have counsels opinion that supports this, Rankine is a judgment which was made without care and in error on so many points

 

In a QC's opinion, it is easily distinguished and the fact that rankine was a serial debt avoider didnt help insofar that it clearly annoyed the judge who went out of his way to hammer him

 

I shake my head when i hear people say Rankine this Rankine that

 

ARGH:mad:

 

It is a poor case, period and may i point out that it does nothing to overrule Wilson et al which were made in the Higher Courts

[xray2]

Hi,

 

My husband is in court today arriving there from his place of work. Postie has just delivered a letter from claimants solicitors which is a statement of costs 'by way of service' for the forthcoming hearing and is dated yesterday. Is this not intimidation they haven't even won the case yet? Is there no protocol on this? Should I get this letter to my husband so that he can show it to the judge?

 

Thanks

[emmaf01]

I would advise getting this to him so he can take it to court and query this with the judge straight away. You don't want his silence to be viewed as acquiescence by the claimants.

[xray2]

Thanks Emma I think they are really trying to intimidate. They had not lodged ANY evidence in the required 14 days and yesterday one day before the hearing it all turned up in a big A4 file but they have simply submitted our evidence - we now this because one of the letters had my hubby's rantings scrawled on it - they have submitted it as if there own the numpties!

 

Felt really calm when I got up too

 

Thanks again

[emmaf01]

There is no reason to stop being calm- they are just playing silly b******s.

 

I think the judge would like these tactics (and probably some contrived fees for photocopying your husband's evidence) brought to his attention.

 

 

Good luck.

[tinkerbell20]

Good Luck:)

[xray2]

Ok feeling better now thanks guys. The numpties made an error on their POC so they made out an N244 to amend said POC which btw we have not heard anything about from the Court (we only knew they had done this because the solicitors told us but when we filed ours we had to hand a copy into the court for the solicitors so a bit odd) Anyway they have admitted the POC was an admin error on their part yet have added charges to the costs for the N244 and for serving it of almost £200 even though they admitted this was an admin error they were responsible for!! If the Court were allowing their N244 to be heard would we not have had confirmation of this?

 

Right am off to get ready to meet hubby with this letter

 

Will let you know how we get on, thanks to everyone on CAG over the last few months don't know where we would have been without you all

[Rhia]

I'd know this Modus Operandi anywhere. It's Cabot and Hodson's Fool I'll wager. They do all of this...late supply of bundle...last minute costs to frighten. It has Cabot/Hodson's written all over it.