parking on private land, not well marked

[Markyjo]

Hello

 

Could someone please advise me on my situation? I parked on what I thought was a public road with parking restrictions from 8 am to 6:30 pm Mon to Sat - no parking at all during these times. I was there on a Sunday. Where I parked, the line was broken and faded in places but right opposite, the line was very definite but as people were parked on the left, I didn't want to park opposite so I parked on the left. Just a little further ahead, the road turns private. On the side of the first residential house on the left is the clamping sign but below out are four marked bays up over a pavement so I thought these related to that.

 

This was in Hounslow - over 150 miles away from where I lived. The free car park to the tube for a Sunday had a market hence parking behind it. Got back - no car. I thought it was stolen and spoke to a neighbour who then told me what happens.

 

Where I parked is part of the private road and the Council attempted to remove the line there. Other cars had left when I got there later so he showed me where the line officially finished, which I couldn't see before because cars were parked there. But opposite, you can park - so the road is staggered private/public!! Even the pillars saying private property is staggered - the one on the left before the one on the right. The one on the right had clamping signs below it. The one on the left was on the house as I mentioned above.

 

I spoke to the company, Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd and they said lots of people have made the same mistake, so I asked them to use their discretion. No way! I asked to collect my car and I would pay the fee and appeal later - no way! They don't normally work Sundays so I couldn't get my car until Monday. I said they shouldn't be taking cars on Sunday if there was no provision for pick up. I explained I was six months pregnant with a 1 year old as well, 150 miles from home with my husband and we both take medication every day that we didn't have with us so couldn't stay. They wouldn't have it. They thought we were lying because there was no car seat in the car but I had put it in the boot with everything else to avoid the car being broken into.

 

I spoke to Hounslow Police Station and an officer had a bit of a discussion with the company who finally relented and said I could pick up the car. It cost me £30 to get a taxi there and another £355 for release. It was clamped first and then later towed (we parked about 9:45am and got back there about 3pm) and we had to pay storage charges included in that.

 

When I rang the company, they said they defend all claims vigorously and it was my mistake to park there so tough, even though they admitted it's a common understandable mistake to make and they don't work on Sundays usually - just doing some overtime.

 

How can these people get away with it? I've researched some law under the RTA 1991, that the signs have to be within 3 cars length of where you parked - well the one on the right was behind a bush and staggered further up the road and the one on the left was high on a house up over a payment and over parking bays but I can't take photos of my car because they already took it.

 

I've written to them saying they illegally took my car, contravening the RTA 1991 as well as other points for appeal (unreasonable fees, that they would not promptly release the car even with payment offered on the understanding I would appeal later, the road layout itself, etc) and have asked them for photographic evidence.

 

Does anyone think I stand a chance here? I'm so upset about the whole business as I thought I was parked on a public road and had checked the legality of parking there, yet these people are taking advantage of what they have said is not clear with lots of people making genuine mistakes. Shouldn't they be making it more clear?

 

I'd be grateful for any advice that can be offered to me.

[lamma]

have you read through the clamping guide sticky from the beginning and followed through to the linked information ?

Edited July 29, 2008 by lamma

[HSBCrusher]

I have moved your post to a thread of its own

[Markyjo]

Thanks to those who moved my post. Sorry - new to this sort of stuff.

[Markyjo]

Yes, I read through the long post following all that research the poster did but nothing was mentioned about the law I found that the signs must be three cars' length away and at a reasonable height under the RTA 1991. I noticed it mentioned about the fee having to be reasonable the case law refers to the clamping release fee, or at least, I read it that way, rather than the towing and recovery from the compound. They also have to promptly release my car once an offer of payment is made, but they didn't without getting the police involved but I still got it released on that day, even though they don't work on a Sunday so how can they take my car, knowing they can't promptly release it? I have no photos to prove how far away I was from the signs because they took the car and I'm worried they will blame it on the local authority for not erasing the line properly.

 

I have checked with SIA that they are licensed and I saw their badges and everything. They said they always win their cases and to go straight to court if my case was so strong. They gave me the impression their appeals procedure is nothing but a difficult procedure designed to put people off and that there was no negotiation - you can't speak to the appeals department. You apply in writing, they reply and if they say appeal not upheld, that's final -which seems to be the case for this particular area as far as they are concerned.

[Al27]

Of course there is no 'appeals procedure' or reasonableness with clamping firms. Clamping firms are often crooks, as you have already found out. Of course they're going to say they win all their cases - they don't want you to take them to court because they will lose.

 

This is private land, and so has nothing to do with the RTA 1991 or the council.

 

 

Question 1 - did you pay by credit card?

 

If so, you need to get a refund from your credit card issuer under the Consumer Credit Act 1974: http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/guides_to/cr...liability.shtml

 

Ring up your card company and explain the situation. They may tell you to wait until it appears on your statement and then to dispute.

 

Credit card companies hate this piece of law and will often fob you off. You may have to write a couple of letters - the first polite and the second a lot more forcefully.

 

In the meantime, write a letter to the clampers (and the landowner if it's private property) headed 'Letter Before Action', giving them 7 days to refund you or else you will take them to small claims court. This will show the credit card company that you have tried to sort out the situation.

 

If you didn't pay by credit card, you need to take them, and the landowner to small claims after 7 days at moneyclaim.gov.uk

Somebody here should know enough to help you write your claim paragraph.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Al27

[Markyjo]

Thank you for your response.

 

I paid by Debit Card, not Credit Card and I tried my bank. They said I authorised payment but I said I did not willingly authorise payment; I authorised payment under duress - what else was I supposed to do with needing medication, a 1 year old with no provisions for overnight, over 150 miles away from home. They said I don't meet their criteria so we can't claim.

 

Is the Road Traffic Act only applicable to public highways and not to all other companies operating on private roads? Not that it helps with no photographs of my car in its location - I've only got photographs of the location itself as they already took my car.

 

I am worried that they will say it was for the council to erase that line completely and not their problem.

 

I don't know the resident's association or whoever asked these people to regulate the private part of their residential road. I don't know how this company is involved either, Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd. I was told that there is a separate clamping company and a separate towing company for removal so I guess I have to find out who is who for co-defendants. How I'd find out about the residents side though, I've no idea.

 

Has anyone come across Parking Control Management? Has anyone succeeded in recovering their money through the courts from a licensed car clamping company?

 

Can I just also say that I am so grateful for coming across this website. I am sure so many people feel in a hopeless situation that they accept being robbed and the fact that people are willing to offer advice - I just hope my thread and people's responses help other people too.

[Al27]

yep, the RTA does not apply to private land, only public highways owned by the council. This is related to contract law and the fact no contract was formed or agreed to. Therefore you are entitled to go to small claims court to recoup your losses.

 

There's a bit of background reading for your information from a famous case Vine vs Waltham: The Peoples No Campaign - Marina Helen Vine v Waltham Forest

 

Do you have contact details for the towers and clampers? Who did you give the money to?

 

Do you have any idea who the road might belong to? Who is this resident's association?

 

In the meantime, you might want to try starting a thread at another good forum, so you get twice as much advice. Google 'fightback forums'.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Al27

[Markyjo]

When we parked, we saw a sign high up on the side of a house, on our left, about clamping. The sign was in order as far as I can see having researched it. But it was above four parking bays to the left of the road. You drive over a pavement to get to them. Just a bit further up from the pavement, I parked on the road ahead of some other cars, on the left hand side also.

 

When we came back, we only saw the other sign after which was staggered further up the road on the right hand side, with a bush obscuring it somewhat. The road starts to become private about four or five car lengths on the left BEFORE it becomes private on the right.

 

Those were the only two signs - one on the left above parking bays and one on the right, further up when the road starts to be come private on THAT SIDE.

 

I rang PCM just now - they won't give me the residents association name for any legal proceedings. The person we paid - I'm not sure who he was. He said it's a different company that tows to those that clamp. When I rang PCM, they said they are responsible for both - not different companies, but different departments.

 

This was the strange thing - the compound was in Slough in a village behind some barns in the process of being converted. Outside on the road was a sign saying "S&G Signs". That's all. Go beyond the barns and there is this lock up, boarded with locks. Still no formal sign of car compound or PCM. We had to wait for the truck to show up as it was not even manned and once inside - still no formal signs. Room for about 12 cars I'd say.

 

I'll have a look at that case law thread too thanks.

[lamma]

they don't want to give out landowner details as they know that you take both the clampers and the landowner to court..

 

the Land Registry can supply useful information....

[Markyjo]

I just rang the SIA. They say the person I spoke to is named with them - Tom Doherty. Whether he is employed by PCM, the car clamping company, I don't know. They said they would look into investigating once I provide their licence number, which my husband has in his wallet with the receipt on it!

 

They also said to contact Trading Standards because of the way they were operating - picking up your car on a Sunday with no prompt release upon payment of the fee - trying to force me to pick it up on the Monday.

 

Anyone had any success with Trading Standards?

 

I'm getting confused now. SIA say they will check them out; Trading Standards; Small Claims Court. I don't want to prejudice my claim in any way. I rang the SIA because Tom Doherty, who I paid the money to, said separate companies for clamping and towing yet PCM say same company, different department. I rang the SIA to check them out.

[Al27]

You won't get much out of PCM I shouldn't expect.

 

Did you pay the fee in one transaction? If so, you're dealing with PCM Ltd. and you just need to send them the Letter Before Action, giving them 7 days to pay up.

 

For the landowner, try the Land Registry as has been mentioned.

[Markyjo]

No - I got smarmy comments from PCM about how they win their claims. After ringing the SIA, Tom Doherty, who took my car, is licensed, has been for four years and recently renewed his licence. They are sending my complaint to the ahead office.

 

We parked 9:45 am.

They clamped 10:45 am (when they don't work on Sundays)

They towed at 1:05 pm (because they wanted to go home no doubt).

Reasons for towing - causing an obstruction and lapse of time.

 

Point 1 - if causing an obstruction, should remove it straightaway - they didn't. Can't be causing that much of an obstruction then and I know it wasn't obstructing anything.

 

Point 2 - lapse of time - a few hours! Not overnight - not even all day. And the neighbour said he would be a witness to where I parked my car and that they do not usually tow away. Seen plenty of clamps but not tow aways.

 

Point 3 - take my car on a Sunday without being able to promptly release it even upon payment - tried to get me to collect it Monday.

 

Point 4 - road markings not clear and neither are their signs.

 

Point 5 - Operations Manager of PCM say lots of people make genuine mistakes there as it is not clear - so I want to argue that as he knows this, they should make the area more clear with better notices.

 

SIA will contact me. If they think Doherty operated outside of regulations, they will revoke his licence. Doesn't help me - might help lots of others!

 

They told me to go to Trading Standards too. Anyone done that before and been successful?

 

Yes I did pay the fee in one transaction so thanks for the advice - dealing with PCM Ltd. Just need to find out who the land owners are so I guess it's a case of giving the Land Registry a map and name of the road for them to tell me.

[pin1onu]

I just rang the SIA. They say the person I spoke to is named with them - Tom Doherty. Whether he is employed by PCM, the car clamping company, I don't know. They said they would look into investigating once I provide their licence number, which my husband has in his wallet with the receipt on it!

 

They also said to contact Trading Standards because of the way they were operating - picking up your car on a Sunday with no prompt release upon payment of the fee - trying to force me to pick it up on the Monday.

 

Anyone had any success with Trading Standards?

 

I'm getting confused now. SIA say they will check them out; Trading Standards; Small Claims Court. I don't want to prejudice my claim in any way. I rang the SIA because Tom Doherty, who I paid the money to, said separate companies for clamping and towing yet PCM say same company, different department. I rang the SIA to check them out.

Hi, I've been watching this one.

 

Just to clarify a few things for you. The SIA were set up to regulate the people who are performing vehicle immobilisation (clamping, towing away and blocking in). They are supposed to vet applicants for licenses to ensure they've done appropriate training and check they are fit to hold a license. This process is supposed to include a criminal record check.

The legislation that put all this in motion was Private Security Industry Act.

The SIA don't actually control the clamping companies or set release fees. However they can investigate the licensees. This includes the frontline staff and the owners/directors of any clamping company as they have to have a license - either frontline or non-frontline.

 

Vehicle Immobilisation has been regulated by exisiting case law and that states that a vehicle must be released promptly once an offer to pay is made.

 

The fact that you had to get the Police involved before they would release your vehicle is cause for concern. This would certainly fall short of the expected standard of fair and honest practice contained within the new consumer regulations.

 

The latter is why I think the SIA have suggested you get in touch with Trading Standards. The clampers have certain responsibilities. A complaint to TS would not harm any civil case - it may actually strengthen it.

 

Finally if you have no joy with your bank then you will have to resort to the civil disputes procedure and that could ultimately lead you to the small claims court. You will need to open a dispute with PCM and give them a chance to respond as Al27 has suggested.

 

Regardless of who did the towing/clamping the person who took the fee is one you should sue in the first instance.

 

I don't know how strong your case is given that there were signs displayed. However if they were not prominent then you would have grounds on the basis that you could not consent to the risk of your car being clamped because you didn't see the signs.

 

It would strengthen your case if you could obtain photo's of the signage.

 

One final point to note is that according to the companies house website this company PCM is in liquidation. You might want to make some enquiries with Companies House (Companies House) as to the status of this company. So you'll have to be quick or they may well disappear off the map.

[Markyjo]

PIN1ONU - thank you for all your advice in your post. A few questions:-

 

Tom Doherty took the vehicle. Paid PCM via Tom Doherty. Who do I put on the claim form? Both of these people as first and second defendant AND the owners of the private road? I don't have the address of Tom Doherty unless I put it c/o PCM.

 

I don't have photos - I also live 150 miles away. They have photos of my car but wouldn't release them. I have to appeal first.

 

The signs on the left seemed to be for some parking bays off the road. The sign on the right was obscured. I checked the public sign for parking on the road as there was a yellow line - somewhat faded but sometimes they are and besides, the one opposite was clear enough too. I think I have a good case in that they should have placed the signs in a clearer position for the left side of the road (there wasn't one - only one above the parking bays off the road, over a pavement, to the side) and the other was obscured.

 

Which regulations are you referring to when they should promptly release my car? As it is Tom Doherty who took it, is he to be claimed against (back to the earlier question for the claims form)?

 

Also, obstruction and lapse of time - I don't think these are reasonable for towing the vehicle away, given where it was parked and for how long.

 

I'm worried they have gone into liquidation. I will have to rush a claim form in with less evidence than I would have liked. I could try and get photos to add to the claim once I have filed a claim form.

 

I will get onto Trading Standards too.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

AFAIK if the company is trading while in liquidation, that is a crime.

I would be inclined to sue the company and also Tom Doherty personally, particularly if he is a director.

[pin1onu]

AFAIK if the company is trading while in liquidation, that is a crime.

I would be inclined to sue the company and also Tom Doherty personally, particularly if he is a director.

Agreed. It's definitely worth ringing Companies House and asking for the status of this company. If they are in liquidation then you should confirm whether they are still allowed to trade during this time. If the answer is no then report them as issuing invoices. If they are still trading as appears to be the case Companies House will be interested as will HMRC.

 

With regard to your claim you will need to obtain proof of the unclear signage. As this is a civil matter the onus is on you to provide evidence to back your claim. I appreciate that you are in a difficult position on this one but a return visit may be needed. Alternately some kind CAG member who live in the area may be able to help out.

 

Lastly the case law I was referring to was Arthur vs Anker

 

"A motorist who trespassed by parking his car on private property having seen a warning notice there that a vehicle parked without proper authority would be wheel clamped and released on payment of a fee, was to be taken to have consented to the effect of the notice, provided that the release fee was reasonable, the vehicle was released without delay when the motorist tendered the fee and there were means by which the motorist might communicate his offer of payment.

 

 

Where, therefore, those conditions were fulfilled the wheel clamper's activity was neither tortious nor criminal. "

[Markyjo]

Thanks for the information to date.

 

I rang Companies House - Parking Control Management Ltd is in liquidation. Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd is not and the latter is the company I am dealing with.

 

Trading Standards - totally unhelpful. Said it was a civil matter and are not getting involved.

 

Land Registry - I have to write in with a map and highlight the area that I need to find ownership of. Online services will only allow you to pick a numbered house on that road and get the details but I need to know who owns the other half of the private road.

 

I don't have Doherty's address - should I put it part of PCM? Is he their agent or employer or something?

 

This looks to me like I will have three Defendants - PCM, owners of the land and Doherty.

 

IS THERE ANYONE WHO LIVES NEAR THE AREA TW3 4DW BEHIND HOUNSLOW TUBE STATION CAR PARK THAT COULD TAKE PHOTOS FOR ME? If so, please send me a private message. Of course, I will supply the funds to cover the cost of a disposable camera and postage for its return in advance. If anyone can help, I would be extremely grateful.

 

I've sent a letter before action giving 7 days asking for a refund due to unclear signs. Also their grounds for removal - obstruction (if it was they should have taken straightaway but didn't so shows no obstruction) and time lapsed (a few hours after they clamped it - not all day or even over night). Also, that they did not release my vehicle promptly and thanks for the case law on that. If they do not refund, I've asked for their photographic evidence also. I didn't go into any detail about unclear signs in case they went and rectified the situation. I don't think the fee was reasonable either (£355) but there is no clear case law on what is "reasonable" apart from what appears to be the clamp release fee.

 

Any other suggestions? If I get back this money, I think I'll share it between all of us!

 

Oh yes, SIA are investigating Doherty but I don't think I'll get anywhere with that. If he has breached regulations, he can have his licence revoked and the only thing I can see is not promptly releasing the vehicle and I don't know if SIA know about this case law. I've got the police to back me up that they would not release it despite offer of payment and the police had a hard time convincing Doherty to release but thankfully, the police didn't give up.

[pin1onu]

Thanks for the information to date.

 

I rang Companies House - Parking Control Management Ltd is in liquidation. Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd is not and the latter is the company I am dealing with.

Apologies my mistake.

 

Trading Standards - totally unhelpful. Said it was a civil matter and are not getting involved.

 

Point out that a UK Ltd company is not complying with the regulations under the PSI Act, that you have complained to the SIA and that the SIA also pointed you in their direction.

 

 

Oh yes, SIA are investigating Doherty but I don't think I'll get anywhere with that. If he has breached regulations, he can have his licence revoked and the only thing I can see is not promptly releasing the vehicle and I don't know if SIA know about this case law. I've got the police to back me up that they would not release it despite offer of payment and the police had a hard time convincing Doherty to release but thankfully, the police didn't give up.

The SIA do know about the case law. They make specific statements like they don't rule on the size of signs, reasonable release fees etc on their website.

 

However they only administer a person/companies fitness to hold a license and their duties and conduct when carrying out licensable activities. They do regulate a few things (such as not immoblising an ambulance, disabled persons vehicle etc) but these are conditions of the license.