Could someone take a look at this M&S agreement please :-)

[BlueSquirrel]

This may be a silly question but it is compulsory the agreement to say it is a CCA regulated etc etc, cos this one doesn't and it is not signed by them. I am guessing M & S do not pass the test. AND they sent current terms and conditions.

 

Edited July 29, 2008 by BlueSquirrel

[palomino]

Are you able to upload the agreement so we can have a look?

[BlueSquirrel]

Just wrestling to add agreement that you don't need a microscope to read!

[ashmk]

Application in my opinion and not enforcable.

[Pinky69]

The Terms and Conditions are there (they should also have sent you statements to comply with a CCA request). However, the main document is an application form and has no cash limit reference, which is requisite of a running credit agreement. What is on it is the amount of credit you requested but what should be on it is the amount of credit they agreed to - and there is no reference to that. Application form, unenforceable and doesn't meet the requrements of your CCA request. The account is now in dispute.

[Captain Spaulding]

Does that really say 1985?

[BlueSquirrel]

Sure does! What a loyal customer I have been! It started off as their charge card that you could only use in M & S, then they changed it to a credit card and now it is And More credit card.

I guess they deserve a point for finding something that old! Shall I SAR them now just for fun:eek:

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello BlueSquirrel!

 

The "Thing" they have sent is also a Microfiche Scan by the look of it, and not a very good one at that. No Original Copy then? Oh dear (see below).

 

If you can't Read any of it, then it fails the legibility test, and so isn't acceptable due to the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

Likewise, if they wanted to Enforce this thing in Court, then they would also need to produce the Original, as required by:

 

CPR PRACTICE DIRECTION 16 7.3:

 

7.3 Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

 

(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

 

Destroying a Statutory Document, i.e. your Regulated Agreement, and saving it to Microfiche is neither big nor clever, as many banks are now finding out.

 

...and don't forget to remind them of their Legal obligation to retain Financial Agreements for 6 Years after the end of the Agreement to comply with Anti-Money Laundering Legislation.

 

But one last comment, I think the M&S Card was a Charge Card, so I'm not sure how they can transform that into a Credit Card based on the original Charge Card Agreement. The whole thing could go sideways for them on that point alone, let alone the other points above!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[davefirewalker]

hmmmmmm

 

on the face of it IT'S AN APPLICATION FORM......!!!!

 

and yes, to be a regulated agreement it needs to have various items on it as described in the 1983 agreements regulations. one thing worrying me though.

 

The t&c seem to have the prescribed terms, but NOWHERE on the agreement does it say "this agreement is regulated by the consumer credit act 1974", no signature boxes etc. So what do we have?

 

I would say its an unenforceable agreement, some more enlightened person may say its an unregulated agreement, however to give running credit it MUST be a regulated agreement...........so my first thought holds

 

A judge may see it differently he may see a contract with the correct t&c and rule against you....?

 

one more point........have you signed anything else in regards to this agreement during the years that you have had it, ie new t&c's that you had to sign and return?

 

PAUL where are you

 

Dave

[BlueSquirrel]

Don't recall signing anything since that time. I guess if I did SAR them then I could see what they produce?

 

BRW, what makes you think it was on microfiche? I thought it was just a photocopy and that would explain the black background.

 

Are the conditions of use suitable to comply with T & C? And no signature from them anywhere. It is a strange one, huh?

[OnMyWayOut]

It does say at the top that it's an 'Application for a Marks & Spencer Chargecard'.

[BlueSquirrel]

It does say at the top that it's an 'Application for a Marks & Spencer Chargecard'.

 

I thought in certain circumstances an Application form could be an agreement. I was just perplexed by the lack of mention of the CCA, that's a new one on me!

[Captain Spaulding]

You are quite correct, application forms can double as consumer credit agreements but they must state that consumer credit agreement regulations.

Your application form does not contain the prescribed terms and is nothing more than proof that you completed an application form....

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello BlueSquirrel!

 

BRW, what makes you think it was on microfiche? I thought it was just a photocopy and that would explain the black background.

 

It's almost certainly a Photocopy all right, but a Photocopy of a Microfiche Scan!

 

It could also be, in theory, a direct Print from a (poop) Computer Scan, or an Archive System Print direct from the Microfiche Scan.

 

But however you look at it, this is almost certainly not a Photocopy of an Original Document placed into a Modern Photocopier to produce a crisp 1st Generation Copy.

 

Few Photocopiers were ever that bad, and I can't imagine any bank awash with Number-Money putting up with a Photocopier that produced 1st Generation Prints as bad as the ones above.

 

Likewise, unless you leave the Lid of a Photocopier Open, they don't add a thick black background around the edges.

 

I'll eat my Underpants if they are not Microfiche Scans re-Printed!

 

Cheers,

BRW

(checking I have some clean ones on Today)!

[pt2537]

Is it definatley a charge Card and NOT a credit card?

 

if its a charge card , it will not fall under the umbrella of the 1974 act

[pmhcfc]

Hey- As we all know Barclays and Cabot are deep into each other's pockets...Well Ken Maynard (CEO - Cabot) said this month:

 

Alongside these actual legislative requirements, there has been a growth in the use of ill advised consumer websites where disgruntled or mischievous debtors can exchange often inaccurate, but plausible, information on avoiding payment of debts. Most lenders and purchasers see this as merely a tactic to delay payment, but it adds to the increasingly difficult collection environment.

 

LOL- Be careful...would hate to think you're being 'ill-advised' --- As if

[BlueSquirrel]

Is it definatley a charge Card and NOT a credit card?

 

if its a charge card , it will not fall under the umbrella of the 1974 act

 

Well they called it a charge card, when it first started it could only be used in their store, but you didn't need to pay the balance off each month so it operated like a credit card. SO, what defines what it is?

 

And if it then became a credit card, wouldn't I have needed to sign something at that point? It's been a Mastercard for some time.

[tinkerbell20]

It'll be a charge card application but M&S converted their charge cars to &More credit card a few years back. If they have converted it to a running credit agreement without a signed CCA with prescribed terms what is position then?

[davefirewalker]

Is it definatley a charge Card and NOT a credit card?

 

if its a charge card , it will not fall under the umbrella of the 1974 act

 

So my thinking it was an unregulated agreement holds, and the t&c's presented means it may well be enforceable.........tricky one

 

you need to fid out if it is a chargecard or if at sometime in the past the changed it to a credit card

 

Dave

[BlueSquirrel]

Hello BlueSquirrel!

 

 

 

It's almost certainly a Photocopy all right, but a Photocopy of a Microfiche Scan!

 

It could also be, in theory, a direct Print from a (poop) Computer Scan, or an Archive System Print direct from the Microfiche Scan.

 

But however you look at it, this is almost certainly not a Photocopy of an Original Document placed into a Modern Photocopier to produce a crisp 1st Generation Copy.

 

Few Photocopiers were ever that bad, and I can't imagine any bank awash with Number-Money putting up with a Photocopier that produced 1st Generation Prints as bad as the ones above.

 

Likewise, unless you leave the Lid of a Photocopier Open, they don't add a thick black background around the edges.

 

I'll eat my Underpants if they are not Microfiche Scans re-Printed!

 

Cheers,

BRW

(checking I have some clean ones on Today)!

 

I hope you haven't got your long johns on today then

 

So if I have been doing my CAG homework properly, it is no good if it is just on microfiche, they have to have ye olde agreement on paper as well.

But now we have the "is it a chargecard" boggle which is perplexing

[tinkerbell20]

And if it then became a credit card, wouldn't I have needed to sign something at that point? It's been a Mastercard for some time.

 

Blue Squirrel seems to be saying that M&S have converted it to a credit card..................

[davefirewalker]

I would imagine that just changing the t&c's wouyld not be good enough. to change an unregulated agreement to a regulated agreement would need a whole new agreement signed.....

 

SAR them

 

Dave

[BlueSquirrel]

Blue Squirrel seems to be saying that M&S have converted it to a credit card..................

 

Yep, that's what they did. Being a saddo I have every statement since time began so I will have a rummage and see what I can find.

[BlueSquirrel]

Is it definatley a charge Card and NOT a credit card?

 

if its a charge card , it will not fall under the umbrella of the 1974 act

 

I have been pondering on this. It is called a charge card but is it a charge card just because they call it one? Presumably the Act does not provide for charge cards as they don't charge interest for credit? But this does charge interest and functions like a credit card. So.......

[BlueSquirrel]

.

 

I'll eat my Underpants if they are not Microfiche Scans re-Printed!

 

Cheers,

BRW

(checking I have some clean ones on Today)!

 

I think your pants are safe, apparently M & S microfiche everything so anything this old is bound to be. What are the implications of this?

Edited July 30, 2008 by BlueSquirrel