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URGENT - Invoice Discounting -


jewelleryman
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Hi,

 

I've looked through the documents (which wasn't quick on my stone-age dial-up connection I can tell you!) and have a few comments to make - whether they are relevant or not is another matter:

 

1. Mention is made in the agreement about an "insured limit" - did LTSB make any attempt to find out whether you had any insurance to cover yourself in the event of this situation arising, and if not, were they negligent in offering the financing? Referring to the debenture, on page 6 point 5.1.6 it talks about the need for comprehensive insurance against "Charged assets...(including loss of rent or profits)". You were also obliged to register LTSBCF's interest within your insurance policies and, as such, if you didn't demonstate this LTSBCF should have taken action on this basis (which is detailed in point 5.4 on page 9).

 

2. With reference to the personal guarantee, it would appear that action should first have been taken against the company (the "Supplier") which is then bound to you (as the "Guarantor") - point 4. (iv) clearly states:

 

"Any acknowledgment or admission by or any Judgement obtained by LTSBCF against the Supplier shall be binding on the Guarantor."

 

though point 6. in the same document might negate this.

 

3. With reference again to the personal guarantee, point 7. suggests that the whole of the claim should be against the Supplier, and as such they should be taking action against them rather than you personally.

 

4. Is there any reason why the deed of priority isn't signed by LTSBCF or did you blank this out?

 

5. In the debenture, section 7 (page 10) clearly states that LTSBCF will appoint an administrator or receiver in the event of a default (again, for the "Charged Assets") yet clearly this hasn't happened.

 

I can see nothing in these documents about LTSBCF or LTSB having any right to contact your other banks. They're only allowed to share information about you within their group and, in a general sence, for "fraud prevention" purposes with the relevant authorities, so I would suggest that they've broken the data protection act in some way.

 

To be honest, all these documents tie everything up for them so - again reiterating that I'm not a legal expert - I suggest there are three issues that you need to consider:

 

1. Should they have taken legal action against your company first, then you (therefore suggesting that the claim may be incorrectly addressed)?

 

2. Did they satisfy themselves adequately that you had the correct insurance in place to protect yourself against loss of profits?

 

3. Did they break the law by sharing information about your financial situation with an unrelated commercial operation?

 

Best regards,

 

Neil

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In my case the claim form had my Ltd company name on one line and my personal name on the next line. So they went for both at the same time.

 

Could that be the case with Jewelleryman?

It's going to be an interesting year...

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Neil, Good morning.

 

Hi,

 

The only insurance they looked at was the credit insurance to see all my debtors were insured. No other policy.

 

They have not gone for the company, they haven't taken the company to court and they received no orders from anyone to instruct my other bank to freeze my account.

 

4. Is there any reason why the deed of priority isn't signed by LTSBCF or did you blank this out?

I think, they have the signed copy. There was so much confusion when I took the facility, they sent so many forms, which were wrong then sent again etc, so I dont know what I signed.

 

5. In the debenture, section 7 (page 10) clearly states that LTSBCF will appoint an administrator or receiver in the event of a default (again, for the "Charged Assets") yet clearly this hasn't happened. Correct, never happened.

I can see nothing in these documents about LTSBCF or LTSB having any right to contact your other banks. They're only allowed to share information about you within their group and, in a general sence, for "fraud prevention" purposes with the relevant authorities, so I would suggest that they've broken the data protection act in some way. Thats what I thought!

1. Should they have taken legal action against your company first, then you (therefore suggesting that the claim may be incorrectly addressed)?

 

2. Did they satisfy themselves adequately that you had the correct insurance in place to protect yourself against loss of profits?

 

3. Did they break the law by sharing information about your financial situation with an unrelated commercial operation?

 

Best regards,

 

Neil

 

Neil, thanks again, I'll see what others here have to say about your wise comments. I cant thank you enough in downloading my documents through your dial up modem and spending so much time in my problem. Thank you. God Bless You..

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Hi jewelleryman,

 

I've just had a read through the complete topic again and wanted to find out from you what documents you need to be submitting to the high court and by when.

 

Also, have you managed to speak with the CAB yet? I think - as photoman said earlier - there's a good case for a counter-claim but you''ll need to seek proper advice about this to make sure that the claim is submitted correctly and has a good chance of success.

 

It's hard to say how the judgment might go but I think the issue about the insurance (or lack of) is important - LTSBCF were negligent in not impressing upon you the importance of having it in place.

 

As you may have gathered, my legal knowledge is extremely limited(!) but I wonder whether it will be possible to settle this out of court. That said, it may be to your benefit that the claim does go to court but you do need to know your options (I would suggest this is weighed up against how much money LTSBCF has cost you as a result of their actions - both in terms of loss of immediate earnings together with the cumulative effect on the business). What's the situation with your business now - are you unable to trade at all because of this?

 

I would also recommend that you do some research (on the net is quickest) to find out the results of other similar cases, try something like

 

"high court" "lloyds tsb"

 

in Google and see what comes up.

 

On a final point, hope you're managing alright :) It must be awful not knowing how things are going to work out but the best way to deal with something like this is just to keep yourself as well informed as you can. From past experience, I've always found that having more knowledge about a situation makes it much easier to comprehend and put into perspective.

 

Best regards,

 

Neil

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi again

 

The latest is I am being chased for £95k. I proposed to pay them £550 per month or pay them £40,000 as a full & final straight away as thats what I could get. Both proposals have been rejected and they are keen to take me to High court, get a judgement and liquidate me.

 

I telephoned so many solicitors and they all want thousands as its a High court matter on account.

 

Really don't know what else I could do so I'm back here again for guidance.

 

Thank you

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In my case they agreed a settlement but only after it dragged on for a couple of years. The settlement discount worked out to about 12% of the outstanding balance.

 

In regard to monthly payments, they accepted £200 a month on a balance of £27k but only after they had obtained a charging order.

 

They took me to court and got judgement to lock the debt in, then applied for a charging order.

 

It seems that a monthly arrangement is only going to be acceptable if there is some form of security in place.

 

Although a charging order my not seem very nice, I found out that once they have security for the debt they cannot go for bankruptcy. On the front page of a stat demand it states that the petition is only valid if the creditor does not have security.

 

Just an idea - please dont take this as advice and sound it out with people you know and people on here but you could be proactive and ask if they want a charging order on your property. If you know in advance that this is what they intend to do, at least you have a clearer picture of what is going to happen.

 

Also, £550 a month would take about 15 years to pay off £95k so you need to establish if this period of time is reasonable for the bank. If it seems unreasonable, try and find out from the bank what period of time is reasonable. 10 years would make the payments about £800 per month.

 

Another proposal could be a cash sum now to make a significant dent in the balance, then offer a charging order on the rest with a monthly payment plan.

 

Finally, would bankruptcy hurt you too much? Could this be a viable option for you? As I understand you would be free of this problem within about two years and give the two fingers to Lloyds.

 

Fodd for thought, not advice and I'm sure our trusted friends on here could add some input.

 

Cheers,

 

1970.

It's going to be an interesting year...

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hi 1970

 

Good info, thanks. I'm going to cab now and do you know if the judgement stays or does it go as soon as they have a charge?

 

As if they put the judgement on me this will stop me from a remortgage, as thats where I could get little cash from...

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For me the judgement remained in the sense that it was still outstanding at the court although it never showed on my credit file at all. Perhaps this is because it is not a county court judgement but a high court judgement. Perhaps someone could confirm.

 

Also, the charging order stops you from selling without them getting their cash. It can also stop you remortgaging. However, when I remortgaged in order to give them the cash, they agreed to a temporary lift of the charge through my solicitor so that the new mortgage could be put in place.

 

Cheers,

1970.

It's going to be an interesting year...

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  • 2 months later...
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