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My son in law wants to repay his loan early to take advantage of another company's better offer so he can buy a new car. RBS are trying to charge him early redemption fees etc, which he feels are excessive.

I suggested to him a few months ago to CCA them and this is what he got back from them.



The Royal Bank of Scotland pic Holts Farnborough

Telephone: 01252 544355

Facsimile: 01252 540587




Personal Loan

Thank you for your recent letter requesting a copy of your loan paperwork for the loan which was taken out on 11th October 2006. Unfortunately I have been unable to obtain a copy of this documentation but have enclosed a print of the details for your information. I trust that this is sufficient to answer any queries you may have, but if not please do not hesitate to contact me and I will try to help you further.

' Customer Services













PRINCIPAL 1,200.00




































09MAY2008 12:29





LAST CHANGE 10JAN2007 TIME 16:50 REF xxxxxx



INDEX 02 ACCOUNT xxxxxxx


BRANCH 830382


Any thoughts welcomed.


PS this agreement was signed in branch.

Edited by phatram
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they still have to provide a copy of the agreement



you can send them this:


Edit to suit:


Dear Sirs,

Account Number: XXX

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues


If there is no such agrement then please confirm this is writing within the next 7 days

Yours faithfully



You want them to state that there is no agreement at all.



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Hi Ida,

They've admitted they cant find it in the letter.

I want to know if he could "barter" with them to get a lower early settlement figure than they are quoting due to a lack of agreement?.


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Of course he can.


Creditors and DCAs - Consumer Wiki


this will give you a basis but remember to add that they do not have any valid agreement


and start off low, don't offer what you can afford, start lower.



alos include this will include any details they have on the credit file as paid



ida x

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They should bite your hand off for any offer now, they should be lucky to get one at all.


But For a quiet life and no court action, I would be going for the balance less all interest paid, set up fees, admin fees and any late payment charges.


Basically Give them back what was borrowed and no more, although you could barter for less as they are breaching the Data Protection Act by processing your sons data.


So With out an agreement that states you agreed to repay the interest, the fees, the charges and the term of lending, thats about all they should be entitled to and also add in that your son wants any entry of the non existent agreement to be removed from his credit file.


If not tell them as no agreement states the repayment period, or amount of interest.

You will now repay it at £1 a month for the rest of your life ( but don't encase they find the agreement down the back of a filing cabinet) :-D

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The Royal Bank of Scotland pic Holts Farnborough Branch

Lawrie House Victoria Road Farnborough Hampshire GU14 7NR

Telephone: 01252

23rd July 2008

Dear Mr XXXX


I am writing in reference to your letter dated 22nd July 2008, which concerns the correspondence with XXXX XXXXX on the 9th May 2008.

Unfortunately we are unable to get a copy of the original documents as the original loan documents have been archived and presently not available.

The information we have provided to you about your loan constitutes a true copy of the loan agreement as required under section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Copy Documents) Order 1983 SI 1557.

I have attached another true copy for your records, if you have any other queries regarding this please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Customer Services

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Should he cancel the DD and then make F and F offer?


(B) Right to Settle Early


The Customer has the right to repay the Loan before the end of the Term by making a


single payment calculated under a formula which limits the amount of the Total Charge


the Customer pays. The amount that the Customer would have to pay if, for example,


the Customer wanted to settle when a quarter of the Term had passed would be


£1,060.09; if half of the Term had passed the amount would be £796.01; and if three


quarters of the Term had passed the amount would be £459.08. In calculating the


amounts shown the assumption is made that all Instalment Repayments due are paid


on time and no default interest or charges are incurred. The amounts shown are


accordingly only illustrative and do not take account

of future changes to the agreement.



He borrowed £1200 over 60 months and has paid 22 payments totalling £690.80.

I think he should offer them £500 as F &F ?


Any suggestions anyone please.

Edited by phatram
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