Debt Avoidance - The Moral Debate

[OnMyWayOut]

I'd struggle with my conscience if they had the correct & valid paperwork AND they had been reasonable with me, although I'd still try and settle for a lower figure as full & final.

[rippedoffagain]

Read about the goldsmiths of the middle ages. in short they used to take gold deposits and issued receipts. Eventually the receipts were used as cash. The goldsmiths realised they could issue more receipts than the gold they held, and charge interest on this none existent gold.

 

Today the same thing occurs, the money you borrow does not exist until you borrow it. The interest you pay is pure profit. Its the biggest sham in history.

 

The moneylenders entice you to borrow, it is an instinctive behaviour to consume what is available, it may not be available next week. Just like dogs will gorge themselves on anything they can eat, instinct.

 

Money has been lent completely irresponsibly over the last few decades, and in particular the last seven years. £1.6 trillion, I think that is £1,600,000,000,000. The greatest amount of personal debt in UK history.

 

The bankers have boasted of their multi billion annual profits, have paid themselves vast bonuses. They have nearly all behaved in the most appalling, and frankly in many cases inhuman fashion to their victims.

 

No I have no longer any moral scruples in avoiding paying these parasites.

 

Rant over, apologies.

[OnMyWayOut]

Thanks for starting this thread Fred, it's given me the chance to put down a lot of the thoughts that have been going through my head and keeping me awake at night.

[caro]

I agree OMWO. It's given me food for thought too.

[Guest daewoo21]

Simple answer is no dont pay any.

chances are you wont get any more credit cus you probably have a bad credit record now.

You may need the money you have got for something important one day.

Even if you did pay what you owed, you wouldn,t get any thanks and they still wouldn't think any better of you.

Morals don't come in to it.

When do DCA'S etc have morals.

Keep your money.

[Pinky69]

I don't mind paying what I am due but I do mind paying what I am not due and once the OC has written my debt off against tax then morally I am not due to pay it to a DCA who has bought it for pennies then asks me for the full amount of the debt - I don't owe them anything. I am left paying only 1 debt after the DCAs couldn't raise anything but toilet paper for agreements, to one OC who has treated me fairly and with respect. From the outset they froze interest, haven't passed it on to a DCA, haven't added any charges and said they would take only what I could afford - I am getting ever closer to settlement. If they all treated people like that instead of like dirt beneath their finger nails, they would get on a lot better. I have got my life back again thanks to CAG and my conscience is clear.

[Fred Bassett]

 

Good for you hme, whenever I read a post like yours it reinforces the debate on the 'don't pay' side. I have not had it quite so bad as you, but I can sympathise - I was in a very distressed state when I finally tackled my situation.

 

I'd still like to be in a position to settle all of my debts, if only that portion of them that I've actually 'borrowed' but there are some that will have to wait a very long time and it's just possible that they won't get anything at all.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[phat256]

hi fred i totally agree with you and the way tey play with our moral conscience ..... after years of misery from DCA/Natwest/HSBC i decided enough is enough and going today for the ultimate kill ..... bankruptcy . nevermind anymore now to worry about my credit rating lol

 

hme4x4 explained better than me how exactly i felt ... i felt trapped and powerless in front of this mughead. i tried theCCa route too long and costly when u live on small income and more importantly the bank don't care about it

[Pinky69]

I can totally understand people throwing in the towel. Where does morality come in when people feel battered into the ground? It can be stressful and time-consuming to query debts using the CCA 1974 and outcomes are mixed. We are all made differently too. Some of us are able to stand up to the bullies and give as good as we get - some need support, some need every letter written for them then are are all at sea again when a response comes. That must be as bad emotionally as not facing up to them so I understand when people say "I've had enough".

[2Grumpy]

When you start mentioning morality in the same sentence as banks, DCAs and CRAs then things are bound to get tricky and emotive.

 

I think that you have to look at the wider picture as well as your own circumstances.

 

Banks make more profit from bank charges on unauthorised overdrafts than they do on loan interest. Where's the morality in that?

 

When they say that they have reduced them, they apply them more often and get the same amount overall.

 

It's the same with credit card charges.

 

DCAs make people's lives hell ringing several tines per day until they are tamed.

 

Having said that, I agree that some are good when you get into financial difficulty and they deserve to be paid.

 

For the rest, the author of CCA1974 said that without the correct paperwork, the debt should be treated as a gift. People in financial difficulty from banks/DCAs who don't give a **** should take note.

 

My son has a cc debt with NastyWest - they were ok when he got into difficulty, Intrum Justicia collected £5 pm - all ok until they started hassling for more when he couldn't afford more. After AIC & Wescot tried their worst I don't think that he should pay any more without a CCA, but NW are being reasonable again ... He has got to make his mind up about paying. I think that he is going to if NW agree that he is making voluntary payments, no interest is added and he decides the amount.

 

But if you look at other threads you can see that NW are awful to others so I'm not sure that he should - unless rewarding good behaviour can change the banks behaviour - I doubt it really.

[OnMyWayOut]

When you add up the profits reported on 'free' personal banking, excessive penalty charges, incredibly high interest on cards and extortionate PPI that doesn't pay out when needed, they've made far more out of me and others than they might lose on a few faulty or missing CCAs.

[pelham9]

The regulation of our society is based on law made by Parliament and judges. For proper regulation the law must be obeyed. If banks seek to circumvent the framework of credit law by not issuing or storing a credit agreement containing prescribed terms (which actions increase their profits) they must be brought to book. It is therefore a legal duty not to repay a loan improperly issued. The CCA is just. If a law is just it is a moral duty to uphold it.

 

The banks and DCAs are greedy bullies. Greed is countered by withholding the focus of that greed - money. Bullying is best countered by sticking up to the bully. I have no sympathy if a bully gets a bloody nose or if a bank gets no money. It is a moral duty to counter both these evils.

 

I have no hesitaion in saying that if a debt to a financial institution is not enforeable in law it is not debt avoidance but a MORAL DUTY not to repay it.

 

Congratulations to Rippedoffagain on his post. I am afraid we are saddled with fractional reserve banking and its evils until the exponentional nature of the system brings it crashing down, It is scandalous that greedy bankers control money supplies which gives them so much power over governmrnts and economies. Another moral reason for upholding the few laws that are in place to curb banks.

[fuzzybobble]

Wether you pay or not, in the banks/credit card/DCA's eyes you'll be no better thought of. So go for the easy option.

[harrythehawk]

Some interesting points and views, I guess it depends on your situation and how you got there as to how you deal with things. The main thing I was grateful for was that it handed control of the debt over to me and not the pressurising monkeys on the end of a phone and this can be managed from here. I can now offer what I think is fair to clear these off in my own time if/and when I can afford it, that process has now started. When I say fair, for instance, I think financial difficulties and closed accounts should not continue to have interest piled on, it just so happens that they have no signed agreement to say they could do that anyway so technically this is very right ..... and fair ...... same goes for charges and fees tied into the unfortunate circumstances

[RedVixen]

This question used to keep goig aourn in my head but it no longer does

 

One creditor claims I owe them nearly £9, 1K overdraft, 6.5K loan, 1.5KCC

 

re the overdrafts - there are £2K charges on that account - so morally I don't owe it and my concience will not be bothered by avoiding giving them that

 

The loan - well there is 2.5K missold PPI (inc intrest)on it and another 2.5K missold from a previous loan - morally I owe them 1.5 in terms of a loans minus an additional 1K in charges from the current account

 

The CC has less charges so really I probably actually owe that one - my recent dilemma is I have had a small windfall - I was going to put most of it on the current acount/loan - but no longer there will be more going towards the CC as morally I do owe them most of that

 

SO 9K becomes just over 1K morally - I am not avoiding the rest but I won't be paying it I don't owe it

 

MBNA - rapid interest rate hikes after the 'voluntary' £12 cap they claim is 'government guidelines' - amounts to masking charges which is against guideleines. As soon as I get the info from my SAR I will be rejigging the figures and offering what I actually owe with a reasonable amount of interest - not what they have stolen out of greed. But I will still be attempting to pay back what I owe

 

We allegedly have a massive personal debt mountain in the UK but as has been mentioned on here before most of it has never been real - just charges and horendous interest magicked up by the computor systems of the financial institutes but still it makes the headlines and the coutry shudders and by in large doesn't question

 

I see on other forums people starting topics bemoaning the loss of 'free' banking. I am sure I read that only 2 something billion out of the 8 made on 'free' bank accounts is actually from charges but they still swallow all the crap the banks shell out about people like us who are making a stand and will be causing the whole country to suffer if 'free' banking is widthdrawn so it is not only ourselves directly they try to bully they drag in our peers to do it for them as well and try and make us feel guilty - not me - I will stand up to what I borrowed and do my best but I won't pay the non existance thousands they are trying to extract for free

 

My total alleged debt is about 14K I will be avoiding about 9K that morally I don't owe and won't let them get away with it.

[phat256]

i could not more agree with the comment above i think the bank should be held responsible for their act and especailly irresponsible lending .

 

when i first had difficulty repaying my loan with natwesty they offered me a bigger loan which at first i refused then they passed to triton which were very aggressive and in the meantime natwest was calling me 3 times/day ( aggreesive sales techiques) to see if i was willing to take a consolidation loan in the end i gave up and signed.. where the respinsability lie there on the debtor or the creditor ?

 

on the upside when wescott called this evening i was very glad to informed them that i am bankrutp now and as such i am not allowed to gave them any payment . they were not very happy bunny but there is nothing they could do anymore !

 

i learn my lesson that bank are very greedy and don't care if you suffer any hardship or have any sort of right !

[reallymadwoman]

In my opinion the debate boils down to:-

 

1. Creditor accepts that sometimes people genuinely cannot pay. They follow all the rules and are reasonable about contact and affordable payments. They may not get all of their money back, but I'll keep paying as much as I can for as long as I can.

 

2. Creditor assumes that everyone is a won't pay. They don't comply with any legislation or guidelines and subject the debtor to four years of harassment with no regard to their circumstances. In desperation debtor has a search around on the internet, and finds CAG, starts sending CCA requests and discovers there's not a thing they can do. Creditor avoids problem by selling debt at a fraction of it's cost to a DCA who repeats all of the above. They will never get another penny out of me. I consider it would be morally wrong to reward them for breaking every rule in the book by paying them anything.

 

In the process I've learnt that organisations that are supposed to protect consumers don't, so the only way we have of making creditors and DCAs comply with the law is to hit them where it hurts - in their profits. On my own, I won't make a difference, but if everyone who has been harassed by one of these companies makes a stand, they will get the message eventually and put their houses in order.

[Fred Bassett]

In my opinion the debate boils down to:-

 

1. Creditor accepts that sometimes people genuinely cannot pay. They follow all the rules and are reasonable about contact and affordable payments. They may not get all of their money back, but I'll keep paying as much as I can for as long as I can.

 

2. Creditor assumes that everyone is a won't pay. They don't comply with any legislation or guidelines and subject the debtor to four years of harassment with no regard to their circumstances. In desperation debtor has a search around on the internet, and finds CAG, starts sending CCA requests and discovers there's not a thing they can do. Creditor avoids problem by selling debt at a fraction of it's cost to a DCA who repeats all of the above. They will never get another penny out of me. I consider it would be morally wrong to reward them for breaking every rule in the book by paying them anything.

 

In the process I've learnt that organisations that are supposed to protect consumers don't, so the only way we have of making creditors and DCAs comply with the law is to hit them where it hurts - in their profits. On my own, I won't make a difference, but if everyone who has been harassed by one of these companies makes a stand, they will get the message eventually and put their houses in order.

 

Good point, nicely put.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[fuzzybobble]

D for debt

C for crap treatment

A for avoid paying them.

 

DCA I guess we have it sorted :D:D

 

Why be knobbled when they can be Fuzzy Bobbled?

[mr.ton]

My answer is...if you can avoid your debts then good on you.

We live in a country that screws us in every way it can, MP's that are fiddling the system in everyway they can & having to put up with the cost of everything going up in price.

So for those reasons - i fully endorse debt avoidance

[fuzzybobble]

My answer is...if you can avoid your debts then good on you.

We live in a country that screws us in every way it can, MP's that are fiddling the system in everyway they can & having to put up with the cost of everything going up in price.

So for those reasons - i fully endorse debt avoidance

 

Best post ever Mr Ton. 100% in agreement with you there.

 

Have some more scales clicks towards your third green blobby

[cashins]

I think at some time we have all tried to square the circle on this one like any decent group of people would.

 

I would ask:

 

Why is it when companies try to enforce contracts to the very letter of the law (and beyond as we know full well), if challenged they will say, "Well business is business" or, "It's not personal, it's a commercial decision."

 

Why is it if we stand up for our LEGAL rights, we are immoral?

 

All I would say to these winging companies is:

 

"Sorry gentlemen, (figuratively), you are businessmen not children. If you can't cope with this big bad world, tough.

 

David

[OnMyWayOut]

Why is it if we stand up for our LEGAL rights, we are immoral?

 

All I would say to these winging companies is:

 

"Sorry gentlemen, (figuratively), you are businessmen not children. If you can't cope with this big bad world, tough.

Absolutely right on the button!

 

If you can't take it, don't dish it out!

[fuzzybobble]

That would be an excellent bit to add on the end of letter to a DCA.

 

Permission to use it in my next letter to Moorcroft???? pretty please

[OnMyWayOut]

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