MBNA won't accept written correspondence only...

[lexis200]

Gosh, I feel very well looked after with both of you replying at the same time:D You should have a big gold star for working together:D

 

Normally (well since reading these forums anyway) I would use the digi signature for everything to do with the banks, but seeing as MBNA are being tricky little wotsits at the moment, and from what you mention Chalkitup, I think I'll do hubbies sig, suitably amended, over crosses and dashes and within a dotty grey box (and if I find any more suggestions before tomorrow I'll use them too!!!)

 

I just don't want to give them the chance to obstruct for anything as I want the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) info before the account is likely to hit Default status in the next 3/4 months. Not that I can do anything about it if it doesn't throw anything up - as I keep telling them, we can't give them what we don't have!

 

OH had another letter today (we're up to one a week now which is nice, I feel like we're friends). It's a bit like good cop bad cop with them, as they've been alternating on the nasty and not quite as nasty letters! Today they went down a new route of ultra patronising, starting their letter with (in bold underlined text) "Let us help you to repay the money that you have spent." Then moving on to "We need you to take ownership and call us regarding this matter so that we can discuss your situation, and help you to repay the money you have spent."

 

In fact, they manage to get the 'money you have spent' line in 3 times in a 5 short paragraphed letter:rolleyes:

 

This wound me up somewhat, taking into account the letters I've sent trying to sort a payment plan out, so I had a nice morning writing to each of the 3 'Head' of Customer Assistance's who have written in the last month, and the VP who wrote last month. It'll get me precisely nowhere but it did make me feel better. Plus I also find writing 'The Letter That Will Never Get Sent' always makes me feel good. I never let them sit on the computer in case one day I just think s*d it and send it, but the act of writing it is quite cathartic!

 

If either of you are around though before I send these tomorrow - (and don't groan now:)) - can I say they haven't fully complied with the CCA because of the terms and conds being current, as the Act states any docs sent should be the relevant ones? I know it's enforceable etc as i stands so I wouldn't be going down the non-payment route, but if I could add that they can't (well shouldn't) Default etc until they provide them it'd just be another little irritant to them.

 

As always, thanks for your help.

 

L

[Chalkitup]

Hello Lexis,

 

I am somewhat busy this evening but I am still looking into your "agreement".

 

I am waiting for another Cagger to come up with the exact same front page so I can just put my mind at ease that all is ok.

 

If it was me I would add about the T&Cs not being correct and as you say it will be another thorn in their side for a while.

 

Thank you for the scales click .... very kind.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[pompeyfaith]

I would add to the S.A.R:

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

 

That should get over any issues regarding I.D.

 

Good luck with MBNA they really are a pain in the *ut

 

Regard

 

Leon

[BeleagueredSinner]

I am sending a copy of my passport to MNBA tomorrow as part of an SAR. The signature is tiny; however, better safe than sorry, is it best to blank it with a marker? Or would this only give them another excuse to delay?

[lexis200]

Thanks for keeping on with that Chalkitup. I wouldn't even have considered that it could possibly be 'Blue Petered', but then I've only ever seen the one from them so I have no comparison, and I'm obviously still rather naive where the banks are concerned!

 

I'll pop in a line or two about the t's and c's. I just didn't know whether I'd have been shooting myself in the foot, so I wanted a bit of confirmation first:)

 

Thanks for the extra sentence Pompeyfaith - I'll get that shoehorned in there somewhere too for good measure:D I'm just starting to find out what gi*s they are, but I'm sure we have plenty more to come!

 

BeleagueredSinner - If you have a look at the posts above, they all point very strongly to not allowing them your signature in its true form, so I would suggest blanking it to be on the safe side. As PF said, if they normally send stuff to you quite happily, they can't suddenly decide it's a bit dangerous to continue. Also, there's a lot of threads where banks have asked for id of some sort before continuing with an SAR - it seems to be a delaying tactic so they can try and tell you the 40 days only applies from when they receive your id. I'm pretty sure I'm right that this is incorrect, and their time is still ticking away, so don't let them fob you off.

 

L:)

[Hopeful1]

Hi Lexis - thank you for the click

 

Can i just throw in my two penneth's worth? Because there is a possibilty the agreement is ok and it does contain t and Cs on the side, i thought you should word your comment on it carefully. Do not tell them outright they have not complied but say something along the lines of thank you for your response to the CCA request, but i am slightly confused as to why you have included recent terms and conditions as these are clearly not what would be referred to in 200_ (whenever it was account was opened.)

 

As Chalkitup says, be a thorn in their side, but don't let them think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Another point is though, the S.A.R asks for a copy of the agreement, so why don't you hold fire to see if the send the same or something different. As i said previously you might catch them out.

 

If you do want to send the letter anyway, send it seperately to the S.A.R. Hope all that makes sense. In a rush - got to go to work

[lexis200]

Hey Hopeful

 

I take your point, and I'll word it more tactfully than I was going to. I would like to include it anyway though, as we've had some sh**ty news today about hubbies dad, and I had some equally cra**y last month about mine, so we could really do with them laying off for a while. Anything I can do to get that to happen is worth a punt at the moment.

 

The SAR's going off today - I'm just photoshopping a box with all sorts of bits in it to make it nigh on impossible to copy a sig, just so hubbie can actually sign and give them one less thing for the gits to obstruct on.

 

All the letters (I have 4 plus the SAR!) are going separately, seeing as they're all from different people I thought that was best otherwise they'll only come up with some to** about not receiving them/not my department etc.

 

Thanks

 

L

[lexis200]

Just read that through - sorry about the language - bad day.

[lexis200]

BeleagueredSinner - have a look at this thread before you send your passport copy off:)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/158161-cca-letters-signatures.html

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Edited September 16, 2008 by lexis200

[lexis200]

Hello again all

 

I was just about to get down to the PO, but suddenly had cold feet on a para in one of my letters...

 

they state, blah blah blah 'before we insist that you disclose your personal assets and income'.

 

My letter asks them what legislation allows them to do this, as National Debtline told me that they only need the I/E form as this is a true statement of affairs. However, I suddenly thought, maybe this is only in relation to going on a payment plan (which is what I was asking them for advice about).

 

So can they ask for this, or can I tell them to swivel?

 

Thanks in advance

 

L

[lexis200]

Okay

 

As I've mentioned, it's not been a good day, so I really shouldn't be writing to the banks. Despite this, I've written a response to a letter that really incensed me, received from a new Head who I haven't heard of before. Threatening I can take, but patronising and untrue really got me. I've not sent it yet though as I'm wondering if I've gone a bit overboard due to my mood today. If you could read the letter from them and my reply, any comments would be welcome...

 

From them -

 

Let us help you to repay the money that you have spent

 

Your account is continuing to fall further into arrears. We need you to take ownership and call us regarding this matter so that we can discuss your situation, and help you to repay the money you have spent.

 

For your peace of mind and to fulfil your duty of repaying the money that you have already spent, we trust you will call us today on 01xxx.

 

We can look to help you by reducing your monthly payment or potentially by suppressing or refunding some of the fees that you have already incurred.

We can also provide you with information to help you deal with your finances in times of difficulty and we have leaflets available which detail your options.

 

In the meantime you need to maintain your account and make a payment of £xx no later than xx.

 

This is your final chance to co-operate before we insist that you disclose your personal assets and income.

 

Our specialists are available etc.

 

And my response...

 

FORMAL COMPLAINT

 

Dear Mr New Head

 

Please take this as a formal complaint regarding the letter I received from you, dated xx and sent 2nd Class, reaching me on the xx.

 

I have never read such a patronising and unprofessional letter from a so-called professional company.

 

How dare you imply I am not ‘taking ownership’ of my situation. I have so far written to your company on 4 separate occasions, each time detailing my problems and my offer of payment. You have chosen to refuse this offer, despite it being all I can afford. You have received my Income/Expenditure form, so you are plainly able to see I am not hiding vast hordes of money.

 

I would like to know, if you can ‘look to help me by reducing my monthly payment, or potentially by suppressing or refunding some of the fees that I have already incurred’, why on earth has this not been done yet? Is it because it is MBNA’s express intention to threaten me into trying to get money I don’t have in order to pay you? Is this why you have not yet ‘helped me by reducing my monthly payment’? Is this why you continued to add fees and interest for 6 weeks after receiving my Income/Expenditure form and my offer of payment?

 

I would also like to see the legislation that allows you to ‘insist that I disclose my personal assets and income’. As far as I am aware, only the courts can insist on disclosure, but I will of course be sending a copy of your letter to the OFT, Trading Standards and the FOS to see what their view is. My own view is that this is obviously a threatening tactic which is a direct breach of OFT guidelines on unfair business practice, specifically section:

 

2.2 (b) leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge

 

With regards to the letters I have so far received from your company telling me I will have to pay more to avoid consequences, I would also point you to section:

 

2.6 (f) pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large installments, or to increase payments when they are unable to do so

 

I would also like clarification as to who is your actual Head of Customer Assistance? So far I have received letters from three; xxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxx and you, but this is obviously not possible.

 

In addition, I suggest you stop sending me offers of a homeowner loan. I have so far received 2 since informing your company of my financial problems, and I’m sure you don’t want me to get further into debt in order to pay you. I only mention this as I had not received any offers of loans prior to my first letter letting you know I needed help. I will copy this in my letters to the other ‘Heads’ of Customer Assistance, in the hope that one of you will be able to action my request.

 

To clarify for your convenience:

 

• Your letter of the 10th September is unacceptable. I require a full apology from you personally regarding its contents.
  
• I require MBNA to seriously consider my offer of payment, as to date you have simply told me I must pay more, which is in direct opposition to OFT guidelines.
  
• I require written correspondence from one person only, so that my account can be dealt with in a professional manner. That person is not to be you.
  
• I require a response to these points within 14 days.
  

Yours faithfully

 

So, is any of that usable? You can probably tell I had a bit of a red mist when writing, so if it doesn't make sense, or is just plain wrong (not sure specifically about whether I can complain to the bodies mentioned), please let me know!

 

L

Edited September 17, 2008 by lexis200
found out some stuff and included it.

[lexis200]

Chalkitup - I've just seen ScarletPimpernel v. MBNA's thread which was resurrected from '07 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/109465-scarletpimpernel-mbna.html

 

There's also what looks like the follow on from that here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/116833-mbna-letter-world-record-1.html

 

The form he had looks exactly the same as mine I think, and also the letter that riled me is word for word the same (so we know that template has stayed unchanged for at least a year!) It's also answered my question re their rights to insist on disclosure, handily enough.

 

Is that any use to you (the form bit I mean)? I can see a few differences in where things are printed (no logo under the sig on mine for instance), but mainly it's the same - even down to the signature being exactly the same, so obviously a print or stamp.

 

Hopefully it'll help you one way or another:confused:

 

Lexis:)

Edited September 16, 2008 by lexis200

[lexis200]

Okay, last one for a bit, I promise...

 

I'm back on the 'agreement' (sorry).

 

Firstly, a very small technicality - OH ticked the 'no info about our other services' box, and yet he's had 2 loan applications.

 

Also, on the Data Protection bit above the signature, it states he agrees with the disclosure of personal information etc etc as shown in condition 11 of the Terms. Condition 11 of the terms they've sent is about altering the agreement, not how they use your data.

 

Plus, as you'd expect, none of the terms referred to on the left match with the terms they've sent (some numbers referred to aren't even there anymore).

 

Is there anything in that that I can fling at them too - I really want to get them to back off for a bit?

 

L

[Jipdog7]

Hi Lexis, seems I'm in the same position as you although the layouts of our Application Forms are slightly different (mine has what I think are the prescribed terms on the back, they are too badly copied to read though).

 

I've been wondering about the Condition 11 situation and also my form has their usual signature but no date.

 

Get the feeling that we are never going to have a definate answer to these questions even if they do end up in Court as each Judge seems to have their own opinion!

[lexis200]

Hi Jipdog

 

It does seem that way, although I suppose at least if you know categorically that it's incorrect you might be able to do a good job of arguing the point.

 

Yours sounds a little less enforceable than mine though, as unless they can prove the back of the copy matches the front they could be terms to anyone's application/agreement.

 

Strange it's got no date though - I assume you've got a thread that you're being helped on with this, as I'm (plainly:)) just not knowledgeable enough with this stuff to help properly. Yet;)

[belovedm8]

lexis

 

keep it business like. comments like how dare you should be avoided.

[lexis200]

Noted - I've just changed it to - You assert I am not ‘taking ownership’ of my situation.

 

You're quite right, it was too personal. I've now gone through, shortened it, taken out any personal references to the writer (after all, it is only a template they've slapped their name on) and made it completely unemotional rather than getting worked up (so bits like the para underneath that one have been amended to a single statement of fact, rather than the questions).

 

I'm much happier with it now. It's going off today anyway for what it's worth, as no doubt it'll be ignored, or chucked randomly in the 'send letter xx' pile.

 

Thanks for that belovedm8 - I appreciate the input.

Edited September 17, 2008 by lexis200

[Chalkitup]

Hello Lexis,

I have read the threads you mentioned and compared the application forms.

 

Plus I found the following on CAG the other week but can not find the link just now .......

An application form can be enforceable but it must contain the prescribed terms plus where the debtor has signed an application form it says “this is a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974, sign only if you want to be legally bound by its terms”. - (the terms state in the consumer credit act 1974 that the agreement must have prescribed terms).

 

So again I think as I wrote before ..... that if it was not for the terms down the side of your "agreement" then you would be ok. But those terms on the left have the "prescribed terms" within them ... so if MBNA produced that in court and your argument was just about the other T&Cs being from the wrong time I believe you would be on a very sticky wicket.

 

As before ...... I am still looking into the front page they sent you ....... nothing to do with terms ... just want to satisfy myself that the left column has not been added at some stage.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[lexis200]

Hi Chalkitup

 

That's an interesting quote, and tbh I'm pretty much approaching it as an enforceable one anyway - it's looked that way for a while, unless something untoward has happened with the left hand bit. If/when anything turns up, it's a different kettle of fish, but for now I'm concentrating on getting them to accept a payment, and letting you clever lot see if anything else is suspect, as I have no clue!

 

I have written about the t's and c's being incorrect in my letters to the various heads and vp's, but in line with what Hopeful said, I've not mentioned anything regarding enforceability or non-payment (we are continuing to pay our offer), I've just said as yet they've not fully complied and I'd like to see the originals for reference.

 

If they continue with the Default/DCA threats, I may at a later point (assuming they don't come up with them) point out that as I haven't seen them I can't possibly know if the terms they refer to re. privacy allow them to pass it on to anyone. I'm not sure about arguing the Default aspect though, as I'll have to look again and see if that's mentioned in the terms on the side of the page.

 

We had a call on the answerphone on Weds while we were out, from a very irritated (and I mean really grumpy - and we haven't even had her on the phone before!) sounding lady telling OH there was an urgent matter and he HAD to phone them before 9pm. Of course he nearly tripped over his own feet in the rush to call them back...

 

That's it for now though, but I'll post any updates as soon as they happen.

[angel_1]

HIYA lexis200

 

and everyone else helping you here, you have all made me smile at the antics of these lovely people who chase us to get us to call them back

 

loved that bit about nearly tripping over himself your lovely OH

 

i am following your thread with interest as im also on the mbna radar,

 

got a few threads going - but wanted to wish you continued luck

 

share with you the other morning i had a call possibly off the same grumpy woman - she asked for my first name and i replied yes (at 8.16 in the morning picked up the phone without thinking!doh) and it was mbna, then confirmed with my full name, and she wanted to speak with me, i said cant taking daughter to college when could she, i told her well all in wiritng pls as ive already informed mbna of this, she replied we are a telephone bank as you well know and will call you again later. To which i replied " well no one will pick up the phone"! bye bye.

 

i am no longer afraid! hahahahh

 

have a good day everyone keep happy ciao laters MAZ

[lexis200]

Hehe, thanks Maz, glad we're all keeping you amused:D

 

I'm quite good on the phone to banks/dca's now - and that's saying something! I don't like using the phone normally, even talking to friends as I much prefer face to face. HOWEVER.... when Mr/Miss Nasty/Grumpypants phones I practically race to pick it up, cos I know I'm recording the call, and I'm just waiting for them to cock up/get rude etc. They never get anywhere, I just get their name then tell them OH isn't in. Sometimes what they say winds me up no end, but afterwards I remember it's all on tape...

 

I'm still not so good with the letters though. I know it's just a slower version of a phone call, but it always seems scarier when one drops on the mat than when some underpaid g*t in a cubicle tries to tell me they're going to steal my cat and take all the spoons from the kitchen so I can't make a cuppa.

 

My one's name began with a C btw -same person by any chance:)

 

And thanks for the support - I have your thread subscribed too;)

[AA99]

Hello Lexis200 !

 

Have been pouring through (or pawing) your thread and we are in almost exact same position with you and MBNA, albeit you are a good 6 months further down the line from us.... Would you mind having a look at my situation AA99 v MBNA and giving me your now more-experienced opinion? We are being driven to despair!!!!!!

 

Many thanks, Cheers, AA99:)

[lexis200]

Hello again!

 

Just a little update -

 

Today OH received a nice purple enveloped letter from the patronising Head of Customer Assistance. We can play games with this now, as the three who have written seem to have their own roles - one is pleasant(ish) one is threatening, and one is patronising to the nth degree. We have to guess which one wants to get us to phone and pay them what they know we can't pay them! Honestly, the days fly by when you fill them with super dooper games like this:)

 

Interestingly, the letter arrived today, sent by 1st Class post, but dated 17th Sept and asking for full payment by the 29th. I can't help feeling there's a bit of jiggery pokery date wise there, but maybe I should trust them more:rolleyes:

 

Nothing interesting in it as it looks to be a standard template letter - with an I/E form enclosed so they know how to deal with my phone call!!!! AAAGGGGHHHHH. It really is a banging your head against a brick wall situation with them isn't it?

 

I'll reply to it in the next few days as it's all ammo for me if I'm responding to everything they write, but I don't think it requires urgent attention.

 

At least we only had the one call from them, and now they seem to have given up again.

 

That's all for now

 

Lexis

[Hopeful1]

He hee You're turning into an old hand at this now! You're like me, i always fired off a response to their letters just to make sure they knew i wasn't giving up and i knew how to play the games. I'm sure i could hear them sigh each time they opened yet another letter from me

[pompeyfaith]

Ive had all the calls and letters with these sc**bags it got to the point where i was getting so angry and depressed i now have all there numbers on BT choose to refuse.

 

Im now at the AQ stage with MBNA and cant wait for my day in court as ive had no Default Notice from them No reply to my S.A.R sent in May No reply to my CPR PART18.

 

No refund of all the PPI I paid which was mis-sold due to me having a stroke in 1990(PRE-EXCISTING MEDICAL CONDITION) and the ramping up of the APR for no aparent reason when at the time interest rates where in decline.

 

You think i have enough to go on lol.

 

Regards

 

Leon