Debt over 10 years old

[sequenci]

Can you clarify what the land registry says?

[JP08]

Hi Sequenci

Last time I went to the Land Registry, they told me that only HFC Bank could take it off and considering what I told them, I should write to HFC and tell them to remove it. You have heard the response in the letter, should I send the Land Registry a copy of the letter?

Thanks

JP

[make them aktiv runners]

In relation to the charge registered against your property, I can confirm that the charge was indeed passed to Hillsden Securities upon assignment of the account to them. As the charge was originally registered in favour of HFC Bank, it will continue to appear in our name. Once the account is settled in full, HFC Bank

will remove the charge from your property, upon receipt of confirmation from Hillsden Securities.

 

Letter from HFC on previous page suggests land registry entry remains in HFCs name.

[JP08]

Hi make them aktiv

 

Yes, it is still in HFC banks name, but they have admitted int eh letter that they have sold both the debt and the charge? which means, they have been paid fo rthe debt and still keeping a charge on my property so they could be paid twice?

This is why I want it off?

 

Any suggestions of what I should of what I should do next would be great as it has been along time now and I need to get back to them within 6 months. Should I send a copy of the letter to the Land Registry and also back to the Ombudsman? but the ombudsman has been really unhelpful in this case so far

Thanks

 

JP

[JP08]

Hi is there any ideas yet?

I had a letter from DLC as well today, basically saying that they had not heard from me in a while, as in I have not been paying. They were wondering if I was afraid to call them because I thought they may not understand in these hard days of the recession?

and to call them and they would help sort this mess out? any suggesitons of what I should write back? I have not paid them since HFC said there was no paperwork

 

Thanks

JP

[JP08]

Hi, Time is running out, do you think if I go back to the Ombudsman with HFC's final answer. they will still side with them? or do you think I should try the Land Registry as well?

 

Can someone please advise?

 

Thanks

JP

[JP08]

Hi

 

I have gone back to the ombudsman to see what they say about it now that HFC have come back with a final response. Will keep you posted

 

JP

[JP08]

Hi

The Ombudsman came back saying that it could take up to another 2 months before an adjudicator can look at my case.

In the meantime, tonight I have had a letter from another debt collector Mercantile Data stating that they have been instructed by Hillesden/DLC and stating that they profile accounts to doorstep specialists? but they want to give me the chance of sorting something out over the phone, which i will not do anyhow.

As no one seems to have any copy of any agreement and it is in dispute, should I just send them a letter telling them this? Should I also send another letter to Hillesden stating it is in dispute? I need some advice on the best way of tackling this.

 

Thanks

JP

[lickthewallfatboy]

if it were me,I would now have reached the stage of a 9 word letter

 

"statute barred,f**k off or take it to court"

 

Sometimes bluntness is the most effective tool-or if it's not an,just drop that bit and call their bluff

[JP08]

Hi

 

Thanks for the advice. I have written to them telling them that it is in dispute and has been for quite some time. I have also emailed the Ombudsman and told them this.

I will keep you updated on what is said next

Thanks JP

[JP08]

Hi got a reply from Hillesden instead of Mercantile data stating it should never of been passed on to them and that it was a training error???? they have confirmed they have put this back on hold pending a copy of the agreement. They say they have chased HFC Bank for this. HFC have already confirmed in writing to me that there is no copy of any angreement. So any advice on what the next step would be?

 

The ombudsman have come back as well stating that they have written to HFC for more information.

So the facts now are:

There is no copy of an agreement

HFC had also sold this debt with no paperwork to Hillesdedn

and there is still a charge on my house in the name of HFC Bank

 

I will update again when I hear back from the ombudsman

Thanks

JP

[JP08]

Hi I received a reply from the Ombudsman, they have not upheld my complaint. They are saying it is fair that HFC can hold on to the charge even though they have said in writing that they have sold on the debt and the charge? If that was the case, should they not have changed the name on the charge at that point? They have had money in payment for selling it and so it should no longer be anything to do with them, so how is it fair that they can still keep a charge on my property? There is no CCJ it was purley voluntary and i only signed to give permission to have it on the property not as a joint borrower. I kicked my ex out in 2000, so the charge should have been moved back then to the fictitous address that he moved to at that point should it not? the account record was at that address? No copy of agreement has been forthcoming by either of them. They have said that whilst HFC cannot provide an exact copy of the agreement, they are not obliged to keep records indefinatley, and that due to a change in their archiving procedures, it was unable to locate a true copy of the legal agreement relating to the account. so they provided a re-constituted template of the loan agreement which related to a standard homeowner agreement, as such the address on the information was fictitious? no signatures either. and are saying that I am liable for the debt? Also last time on my complaint against Hillesden, they said it was okay for them to demand a figure of 28K by Credit card? which I know is against OFT Guidelines? Any advice? I have to go back to them by Tuesday? Thank you in advance

[Jasper1965]

, they are not obliged to keep records indefinatley, and that due to a change in their archiving procedures, it was unable to locate a true copy of the legal agreement relating to the account. so they provided a re-constituted template of the loan agreement which related to a standard homeowner agreement, as such the address on the information was fictitious? no signatures either. and are saying that I am liable for the debt?

 

Despite judge Waksman giving these odious companies extraordinary priviledges in respect of reconstituting agreements he did at least quite clearly state that any such reconsituted agreement should be accurate and a fictitious address makes this recon agreement not only wholly worthless but possibly fraudulent.

 

There is in my mind a clear difference between a genuine attempt at reconstituting an agreement and a fraudulent attempt. It might be worthwhile contacting your local police force and informing them that a company is trying to get you to pay them £30,000 on the back of some obviously forged documents.

[JP08]

Hi Jasper, thank you for this, I will try that, I am going back to the ombudsman, I will state this as well in my letter, but I think they will still come back with not upheld. If they do, I will go to the police. Thank you so much

[Jasper1965]

It might also be worthwhile to write back to the OC enclosing both a copy of this dodgy agreement and a statement of truth for them to sign to the effect that this document is a true reconstitution of the original document. Tell them it looks nothing like anything you might have signed.

 

The OFt will probably be interested in this now as it is clearly a deceptive and therefore "Unfair business practice".

[JP08]

Hi Jasper Thanks you for your help? they already have a copy of that document, but i will add in what you have said, Thanks You I really appreciate it!

[JP08]

Hi are there any templates for statement of truths on google I can only find what should be at the bottom of it?

[Jasper1965]

Just write to tell them you are slightly concerned that the document they've issued bears no resemblance to any other document you hold or can remember signing yet the DCA are attempting to force you into payment on the back of this document. Could they kindly confirm by a statement of truth from an officer of the bank whether or not this is a true copy of the agreement which you would have signed at the time please and also formally confirm whether or not the original document exists?

 

Your situation sounds very messy, if you can get them to confirm that this wholly unenforceable document is a true copy this would cause the DCA a whole lot of trouble in the event they tried to bring Court action against you. Precludes them effectively from Court action especially as due to the amount involved it wouldn't be a simple small claims case.

I would then put the account into dispute permanently and stop all payments on the basis that they are taking them as acknowledment a relationship exists.

 

The charging order is very complicated, not sure how you would approach that but maybe one ray of light is that if either party were to unilaterally seek enforcement of the order it might be refuted on the grounds that HFC have sold the charge to the DCA (provable) or if it's the DCA then HFC have retained the charge (also provable) so neither really has the right to action unilaterally as you've documentation which bizarrely disproves either parties claim to the charge.:-| I like to think that in those circumstances any claimant would then be put to proof which is going to be impossible by the sounds of it but you need to continue pursuing the matter to establish exactly where you stand.

 

ps just hover your mouse over the word "Ombudsman" in your earlier posts.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Jasper1965

[JP08]

Hi Jasper, thank you for your help, yes, I totally agree with you, I already have in writing from both the bank and the ombudsman that due to changes in archiving, the original document does not exisit and that is why they did a re-constituted one with a fictitious address, (they even said that part in writing). The DCA have the account in dispute, albeit they did try to pass it on to yet another DC who when I put another letter of dispute to them, they passed back to DLC who said it was a training issue and re-put it on hold pending the orginal document being received from the bank. Which will never happen as it no longer exists. What I really cannot understand is if this charge is supposedly valid, then why do they keep passing the debt on if both of them are supposed to have claim to the charge? or as the bank put it, the DC in error tried to take me to court to put another charge on the property, (and this is the ombudsmans words in writing) because the DC were not aware that the bank had already registered a charge at the begining of the loan? do they know what they are doing? they have confirmed in writing that A) they sold both the debt and the charge, B) but did not tell the dc that they had done this? is this good banking practice?

The ombudsman have said that they have been persuaded that the charge is not registered incorrectly even though the bank cannot produce a copy of the signed agreement.

 

I have put to bank about the charge yet again, that I cannot see how they can retain the charge on my property, when they have admitted in writing that they have sold both the charge and the debt to the DC. This means that they have had payment for it and should no longer have any right to have a charge on my property? I am sure I read somewhere that there cannot be a charge without a debt attached to it? and if it is sold on then the name has to be changed at the same time as selling it or lose it? But I cannot find it anymore on google.

Yes I have seen that statemet about the ombudsman. They rejected one of my other claims, when the DC had treatened more action if i did not pay up by Credit card immediatley the sum of £28k. I know that is against OFT guidelines, but again they sided with the DC? what are the ombudsman there for? I am giving it one last go there and then i will take it to court. Now that I have all this stuff in writing, I feel I have a prity good case I think? just worried about any loop holes that would make me have to pay the fees?

JP

[JP08]

Hi not been on here for quite a while, had loads ot deal with. I am still waiting for the ombudsman to give a final decsicion on the bank charge, I do get letters from them saying I am still in the queue?

The DCA still has the debt in dispute after my letter to them as advised previoulsly to send (why you shouldnt use section 77/78 cca 1974 if you want the signed agreement) this was sent to them on the 27th of July 2009, so I think I have given them enough time. Every 21 days I receive a letter stating that they are still following up on my request with the bank as they do not have an original copy or any copy so it seems, and they will write to me again in another 21 days? what I am wondering is on the second letter on the forum, seems to be directed at not having even heard from them? any ideas on a bit of re-wording as this seems to be going on forever... what time deadline should I give now? I am not being chased by anyone but I want to get rid of it as soon as possible Thanks JP

[citizenB]

Sorry, I havent gone back over your thread, so can you let us know which DCA is it and who was the original creditor. Has this account been assigned to the DCA ? eg, are they now the owners of the account or is it still with the original creditor and the DCA is just pursuing for payment ?

 

The charges claim with the FOS.. is it for Bank /overdraft charges or credit card charges.

[JP08]

Hi Citizen B the DCA is Hillesden/Direct legal & Collections. The original bank was HFC Bank it was a consolidation of Bank accounts that my ex had consolidated in to a loan that had a voluntary charge put on the property.

I have it in writing from HFC Bank that the charge and the debt were sold to the DCA, the charge is still in HFC's name on my house which is what I am waiting to hear back from the FOS about. I believe that you cannot sell a charge and still have it in your name, it should have been assigned or extinguished when it was sold?

[citizenB]

Have flagged your query for site team, this is beyond my knowledge.

[JP08]

Hi Citizen thanks, the consumer credit council told me about the charge bit. What I am looking for is help with the next letter to the DCA, they have had over a year to produce the document and I know there is not one to be produced as HFC have already told me this in writing, they could only produce a reconstituted one with an address I have never lived at and of course no signatures.

I just want to get rid of it as it has been going on for 21 years now It is my ex's debt, and them keep sending me a letter every 21 days saying they are still looking for it, is stupid really. They should have given up by now and just closed it.

Thanks

JP