Consumer Action Group Strategy

[clumch]

You have achieved so much with the bank charges issue.

 

You need to keep the momentum going!

 

People get bored if things are slow ...

 

Now people have a taste for "reclaiming the right" you need to pick a new SINGLE issue and focus on it.

 

The issue needs to be:

 

- easy for people to get involved and effect change

- easy for people to understand

- easy for people to agree with

 

Here is one with universal appeal:

 

- Council Tax

 

The only power the citizens of the UK have over the government is TAX.

 

PAYE is designed to remove our power to choose.

 

But Council Tax is "unprotected".

 

For most of the population Council Tax is collected through our old friend "Direct Debit"

 

We need to organise a single month in which a large number of people cancels their direct debits and simply stops paying council tax.

 

For people who are frightened of retaliation from the council they can simply pay as late as they dare.

 

But the system that forces us to pay Council Tax has a very limited capacity - the civil courts - Councils have to pay CASH up front to the courts in order to secure a court date to get a CCJ.

 

Once a large enough volume of people are in arrears the whole system crashes.

 

That is what happened with Council Tax #1 "Poll Tax".

 

What can we achieve?

 

- panic in the government

- give citizens a sense of power and excitement

- give citizens hope they can reclaim their rights

 

What can we lose?

 

- the government will adapt and paying council tax will get harder to avoid

 

So we need to attach something to the action

 

- Citizens will start paying Council Tax again once PAYE has become optional and ANY employees can choose Self Assessment

 

Luckily for us the government has already built a tax infrastructure that supports large numbers of Self Assessment - so it is a perfectly reasonable request.

 

Once PAYE is optional - pick another SINGLE issue with wide support and use mass witholding of TAX payments as a lever to get more rights.

 

For instance the Credit History system ...

 

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

 

And thanks to the Internet we can have it by simply clicking "Cancel Direct Debit" ...

[Bookworm]

Why on Earth would you want to get rid of PAYE? :-?

 

It is one of the most useful things ever, and I can assure you that most of the people I speak to in France who have no such thing and instead have to fill in form after form each year, then get charged a "provisional 3rd", then the next year, get charged for the previous tax year, wish they had a system as efficient and fair as PAYE.

 

My sister is currently working her backside off to clear her debts. As a result, next year, she'll get hit with a big tax bill. So even if she wants to then ease off, she'll have to keep on working more to clear the tax bill, etc, etc...

 

Most people, especially those on low income and with problems budgetting, know that when they get their wages, that is it, what's left is theirs.

 

I don't know about others, but there is NO WAY I would ever get involved in a campaign to get rid of PAYE. ;-)

 

As for Council Tax and DD, people have chosen to pay it that way, so I doubt that they'll want to change it, although I quite agree with the evil that is DD and always pay by S/O myself.

[PGH7447]

change council tax, dont vote Labour then

[Bookworm]

Oh yeah, cos the Tories who introduced it the first place would surely get rid of it?

[sequenci]

But the system that forces us to pay Council Tax has a very limited capacity - the civil courts

 

Er, no.

 

Enforcement of Council Tax is currently via the Magistrates' courts. Non-Payment of the tax is a CRIMINAL offence. The council have the MOST amount of enforcement measures going out of any debt type there is. I really wouldn't advocate doing this at all.

[clumch]

Please read my post carefully.

 

I am not advocating "getting rid of PAYE" just making it optional.

 

I am not advocating "getting rid of Council Tax" just using temporary non-payment as a way of uniting citizens into common action to effect changes in PAYE.

 

As for point regarding magistrates court - that may be true - but they have limited capacity just the same.

 

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

[PGH7447]

Oh yeah, cos the Tories who introduced it the first place would surely get rid of it?

 

Yep but at least it wont increase by above inflation rises everyyear for less and less services, of course we can also all pay extra to get our bins emptied in pay and throw:p and blame it on climate change

[sequenci]

As for point regarding magistrates court - that may be true - but they have limited capacity just the same.

 

There is no 'may' about it. Council Tax enforcement is pretty savage. Some councils are VERY quick to go for enforcment, you must remember that the Local Authorities give us the option of paying the tax in instalments, it's not an automatic right - they could remove this. I wouldn't advocate people messing about with their payments unless they are fully aware of possible consequences, such as having a Liability Order against them + the possible enforcement measues such as Bailiffs, Attachement of Earnings, Bankruptcy and possibly even Imprisonment.

 

For sure my post is a little OTT but I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

[PGH7447]

For sure my post is a little OTT but I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

 

Agree there, the installment option is often the only way people can pay this large bill, take that away and most people would end up in court for none payment:eek:

[PGH7447]

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

 

That ended when we started to let the elf and safety brigade tell us what do, along with all the other Rights Brigades that now infest our everyday life.

[clumch]

There is no 'may' about it. Council Tax enforcement is pretty savage. Some councils are VERY quick to go for enforcment, you must remember that the Local Authorities give us the option of paying the tax in instalments, it's not an automatic right - they could remove this. I wouldn't advocate people messing about with their payments unless they are fully aware of possible consequences, such as having a Liability Order against them + the possible enforcement measues such as Bailiffs, Attachement of Earnings, Bankruptcy and possibly even Imprisonment.

 

But only if they pick on a small number of individuals.

 

The system can not handle large numbers of simultaneous non-payers.

 

It simply collapses - a council would bankrupt itself if it tried to take everybody to court - the court does not have the capacity anyway.

 

The credit history system is the same - if everybody had a CCJ and everybody was defaulted by their bank - the whole system collapses.

 

These systems only work because they pick on individuals - classic divide and conquer.

 

Group action renders them instantly powerless.

 

5 million people cancelling their direct debits and paying as late as is legally possible would send a powerful message "we have had enough - change now"

 

We need to take advantage of the weakness in the system now before it no longer exists.

 

Controlling government access to money is the only peaceful way we can improve this country.

[Bookworm]

I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

Most councils have the ability to pay by BACS nowadays, so there's nothing to stop them changing to S/O instead, still paying by instalments, but being in control in case of issues. ;-) A lot of people can't afford to pay over £1000 in one go...

[tomterm8]

it would be incredibly foolish not to pay council tax as a political statement, unless you are willing to go to jail.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Er, no.

 

Enforcement of Council Tax is currently via the Magistrates' courts. Non-Payment of the tax is a CRIMINAL offence. The council have the MOST amount of enforcement measures going out of any debt type there is. I really wouldn't advocate doing this at all.

 

Not quite true on two points.

 

Non payment of council tax is not a criminal offence.

 

I didn't pay mine last month-I have committed no crime but just simply paid it late which my council accepted.

 

Should I simply refuse to pay, then be tried and convicted and sent to prison, only then is it a criminal offence.

 

And HMRC have more power of enforcement for a debt than a council-they, if they had reason to, could raid your house and rip up your floor boards and tear down your walls in less than an hour of deciding to.

 

A council couldn't.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Weird Al Yankovic

[Weird Al Yankovic]

it would be incredibly foolish not to pay council tax as a political statement, unless you are willing to go to jail.

 

I disagree.

 

History shows that individuals/groups are initially seen as foolish in their acts of political defiance but are then subsequently proven to be visionaries. And risk more than jail.

 

Suffragettes?

 

This evil & unfair tax should be replaced, just as New Labour promised to do in their 1994/95/96/97 manifestos.

[Dipply75]

I disagree.

 

History shows that individuals/groups are initially seen as foolish in their acts of political defiance but are then subsequently proven to be visionaries. And risk more than jail.

 

Suffragettes?

 

This evil & unfair tax should be replaced, just as New Labour promised to do in their 1994/95/96/97 manifestos.

 

The Poll Tax? What a carry on that was.

 

I am hoping the SNP actually follow through and scrap Council Tax in Scotland as they keep saying. I think it would be a much fairer system, not to mention not having that big bill to pay (monthly or yearly). If it gets paid automatically along with your other taxes the debt situation is much harder to fall into.

 

If anything it would be an interesting experiment, we have to try something

 

Can I suggest a proper regulator for the CRA's?

[sequenci]

Non payment of council tax is not a criminal offence.

 

Enforcement is via The Magistrates' Court, it could be an offence if the non-payment is proven to be culpable neglect / wilfull refusal. People have gone to prison for non-payment and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

 

And HMRC have more power of enforcement for a debt than a council-they, if they had reason to, could raid your house and rip up your floor boards and tear down your walls in less than an hour of deciding to.

 

A council couldn't.

 

They would need a warrant of entry first, any idea how this can be done within an hour? When was this power last exercised? This is quite interesting as I've not had a great deal of training on business related debts, more help would be great!

[Spiceskull]

I'm not sure I understand the nature of this 'strategy.' CAG is about reclaiming the right, and remedying wrongs, not civil action on an act of Parliament. Sure, there are 101 things wrong with the implementation of Council Tax, but in principle no-one could disagree that it is a viable element of local government. In principle there is no wrong to be righted.

 

I think a better strategy/campaign would be the way utilities are managed: I read this morning that due to 'estimated' readings, and considering that regular DD payments were agreed a couple of years ago, we have a debt timebomb with regard to 'monies due' in the future. This is compounded by the expected 40% increase in bills over the coming months.

 

I fail to understand the principle of a utility company 'billing' a customer for an indeterminate service usage. You buy a gallon of fuel, you pay for a gallon of fuel. You buy a pound (provoke provoke) of bananas, you pay for a pound of bananas.

 

I believe utility companies, including telecoms, should be held accountable to their billing methods. If they don't bill you correctly then they should not be allowed to recover the shortfall after a set time limit. After all, the meters are theirs, they should frikking well take the trouble to read them. Besides, it makes good business sense to have an accurate overview of future cash flows...

Edited July 12, 2008 by Spiceskull

[tomterm8]

It doesn't always require a warrant, Dave, if they have grounds to arrest you. My authority is the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Application to Revenue and Customs) Order 2007 s8. Since almost all HMRC offences were made arrestable offences by the Finance Act 2007, or fall within the bounds of s24 of PACE, or fall within s1 of Schedule 1A PACE, almost all offences can be subject to search without a warrant.

Edited July 12, 2008 by tomterm8

[sequenci]

It doesn't always require a warrant, Dave, if they have grounds to arrest you. My authority is the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Application to Revenue and Customs) Order 2007 s5. Since almost all HMRC offences were made arrestable offences by the Finance Act 2007, or fall within the bounds of s24 of PACE, or fall within s1 of Schedule 1A PACE, almost all offences can be subject to search without a warrant.

 

Interesting stuff mate, I have some reading to do (I was trained in this in 2006). Cheers sir.

[clumch]

The strategy is to increase citizens rights by direct action without anybody getting hurt - by hitting the government in the one place it cares about - its wallet. PAYE may be a convenience for citizens but it exists to remove our our only real power.

HMRC took over £515,000,000,000 last year - about 75% directly from citizens. The government will do anything to keep that revenue stream.

Currently they use the threat of violence from the police to get the money.

My point is - the civil and criminal justice system has a *very* small capacity - almost any organised non-payment will break the system.

The question is: which tax can the majority of the population choose not to pay? Council Tax

We use non-payment of Council Tax to force the government to make PAYE optional.

Then we use (the threat) of mass non-payment of Income Tax to force improvements in citizens rights.

We have the power to effect change by using online banking and clicking "Cancel Direct Debit" When it history has it ever been so easy and painless? Am I making sense?

[HSBCrusher]

Am I making sense?

no.

[JOSH_IOU]

Oh yeah, cos the Tories who introduced it the first place would surely get rid of it?

 

 

They would actually.

 

They recycle people as well as ideas you know.

[Conniff]

My point is - the civil and criminal justice system has a *very* small capacity - almost any organised non-payment will break the system.

The question is: which tax can the majority of the population choose not to pay? Council Tax

We use non-payment of Council Tax to force the government to make PAYE optional.

Then we use (the threat) of mass non-payment of Income Tax to force improvements in citizens rights.

We have the power to effect change by using online banking and clicking "Cancel Direct Debit" When it history has it ever been so easy and painless? Am I making sense?

 

 

It don't work like that, and if every citizen in the country stopped paying their ct, it would have no effect at all on the justice system.

 

The CT system is administered by a computer printout of all ct payers who are in arrears, the operator just presses a button to say print out all those in arrears, this produces a spreadsheet with them all named. That very long sheet is then submitted to the court as is and the judge stamps the bottom, he doesn't even look at the names on the list.

 

Each person is not individually taken to court, so if that spreadsheet has one name on or 50 million names on, it makes no difference, it takes the same amount of effort and time.

 

The only one who would benefit from this would be Royal Mail with all those extra letters to deliver.

[clumch]

Each person is not individually taken to court, so if that spreadsheet has one name on or 50 million names on, it makes no difference, it takes the same amount of effort and time.

 

That is an interesting point - but sending 50 million letters does not get the money paid - everybody ignores the letters.

 

Then what do they do?

 

You can not send bailiffs to every house - that is tantamount to civil war.

 

Plus somebody still has to pay cash up front for 50 million court dates - which they can not afford!

 

If more than a small % of the population have CCJs the credit history system collapses.