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Grounds for legal action against HSBC (data privacy)


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I'm already convinced I've got major grounds for complaint, but do I have grounds for legal action (under data protection law)?

 

I live in Spain, HSBC knows this of course. The post usually takes about 7-10 days to arrive from the UK, occasionally longer. I think the bank should be smart enough to recognise this fact.

 

1. Letter received, dated 8th May - It would have got here around the 15-18th May. A polite letter observing that I hadn't paid anything into the account since January and "Please arrange to pay into your account in the next seven days". I responded within a couple of days, and made an international transfer from here. NB: No specific amount was requested, and the letter does make any indication that my overdraft facility was likely to be withdrawn.

 

2. Dated 22-May, letter received first week in June - Confirmation of receipt of the transfer I had sent, 991 pounds after conversion to sterling, being some 60% of the amount that had been outstanding. I consider that a very reasonable response to the bank's request in (1) !

 

3. Another letter received the same day as (2), also dated 22-May: "FINAL DEMAND" for 722.62 - the balance *after* crediting the 991 pounds transfer, threatening legal action etc. Where were the earlier "demands"? I don't think (1) counts as a "demand"! Anyway look at the time difference of just two weeks between the "polite reminder" letter dated 8th and the nasty "Final Demand" dated the 22. Something amiss, surely!?

 

4. Yet another letter also received the same day as 2 & 3, but dated 23-May requesting the return of my credit card "due to the way you have been conducting your HSBC bank account". At this point I was assuming there had been some kind of fraudulent activity on one of my accounts!

 

5. I telephoned Customer Services the same day to investigate and complain. I'd guess it was 5-June but not sure. Gave the same information as above to HSBC representatives. They claimed that a letter had been sent informing me that my overdraft facility had been "reviewed" which means "cancelled", so the full amount had become payable. I explained that I had received no such letter. I made it clear that I was not happy with the way I was being treated. I expected to get a written response.

 

6. Yesterday, 9-July Logged into online banking to check my account as I had just sent another transfer to the account from here. Found the account was not accessible. Called the help-line and was told the account had been "closed" and that I need to call "Metropolitan Credit" on an 0500 number. After speaking with Metropolitan I went back to HSBC and made a formal complaint which I duplicated on the online messaging. They have promised a response "in due course." Not confirmed, but on the phone the customer Service girl indicated that on checking it looked like the proper series of documents hadn't or might not have been sent out - that would concur with my opinion!

 

7. Metropolitan tried calling me today, on my mobile number which I hadn't given to them. I guess they will try again tomorrow and I'm am going to enjoy tearing them apart.

 

I've been checking the Banking Code and find that:

 

* The closure of my account was outside the terms of the code (no thirty days notice, para.7.6)

* Confidentiality - I was not "behind with my payments" (there was no specific payment routine defined) and in any case I was not given time to make proposals for repayment (para. 13.6).

 

So, I wonder whether Metropolitan have received my details improperly, or even illegally under data protection law. I realise that the Banking code is not law, unless it could be considered part of the service contract.

 

What do you think?

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Hiya netg, as I said on the other thread the set up of HSBC and Metro with the same data controller makes them effectivly the same company under the Data Protection Act, therefore they dont need any permission to pass data between them 8-)

 

pete

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.... HSBC and Metro with the same data controller makes them effectivly the same company under the Data Protection Act, therefore they dont need any permission to pass data between them 8-)

pete

 

Thanks Pete, that figures. What about passing data to a third party based in the Philippines? (see my latest posting here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/151559-truth-about-mcs-metropolitan.html ) ... though actually I'm wondering if those MCS people are actually HSBC Philippines employees, that would make more sense, "keeping it in the family". Still an outside organisation from a UK perspective I would imagine. What do you think?

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The Data Protection Act is a British law so an overseas company wouldn't be bound by it but HSBC (UK) would... Having said that HSBC like to keep everything "in house" so my betting would be even if there is a third company involved its owned by HSBC :rolleyes: also baring in mind HSBC stands for the Hong Kong and Singapore Banking Company the Philippines probably feels more like home than the UK does

 

pete

Edited by Castlebest
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Oops! sorry pete - I think you'll find it'sthe Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation..... but same part of the world......:)

 

 

If you think about it Shanghai sounds about right - they've Shanghaied thousands of us....... :grin:

Edited by johnnymitch
Afterthought

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Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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The Data Protection Act is a British law so an overseas company wouldn't be bound by it but HSBC (UK) would...

 

Indeed. Possibly yet another reason why HSBC have created the whole "MCS" masquerade - it gives them a legal way of operating in the UK without being bound by Banking Standards, Data Protection or Financial Services laws. Pretty unethical behaviour IMO, but makes good business sense from HSBC's perspective.

 

I've been trying to get some hard facts from reuptable sources about the Philippines in terms to what extent it's a high-risk zone for fraud etc. So far I've found this on a US government site

- Philippines

- where it says:

 

"As in many of the major metropolitan areas in the United States, crime is a significant concern in Metro Manila. .... internet scams and credit card fraud are common."

 

So, here's a part of the world to which HSBC have directly passed my personal data, without my permission and without informing me of the fact. Using that personal data Philippines-based operatives could potentially contact other institutions in the UK or elsewhere and masquerade as me, thereby possibly gaining access to further personal information. In other words, gradually build up a more complete identity theft, which could then be used for fraudulent activities in my name.

 

Regardless of how high the real risk is, the point is that's it must now be significantly higher than it would have been were it not for the deliberate actions of HSBC. I can only hope that the operatives - those people working in Manila and claiming to be "MCS" - are trustworthy. HSBC/MCS have tried to mislead me into believing that those people were in fact "MCS Ltd" agents working in the UK (answering a UK 0500 phone number.)

 

I wonder, what about my trying to insist to HSBC that they are ethically (if not legally) bound to inform their customers that (a) MCS is a wholly owned subsidiary of HSBC and (b) MCS provide customers' personal data to fourth party, neither HSBC nor MCS (who are they really?), located in the Philippines. Opinions?

 

EDIT: It's beginning to look like the Philippines people are in fact HSBC employees (HSBC Philppines) and not an outside party after all - see later posts in this thread.

Edited by netg
Edit for updated theory about identitiy of Philppines operatives
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I would need to check up, but I remember reading something about restrictions being placed on UK registered companies transferring personal data outside of the EEA (European Economic Area) and I am sure this forms part of their licence arrangements with the FSA...

 

As I say, some reading and research, but this principle is lodged in my mind from previous acticities...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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...something about restrictions being placed on UK registered companies transferring personal data outside of the EEA

 

That would seem to make sense, there ought to be some geographical restrictions, and EEA would seem the obvious one.

 

Not really sure where I'm going with this - the whole thing started because HSBC p****d me off so much by their actions (top of this thread). Not sure whether I'd actually take legal action, even if viable, it was more a matter of gathering evidence for making formal complaints to HSBC.

 

Summary of the key facts:

 

* Metropolitan Collection Services ("MCS") Ltd are a wholly owned subsidiary of HSBC Asset Finance (UK) Ltd, so their operational activities are ultimately controlled by HSBC.

* MCS obtain personal data directly from HSBC. This data is then made available to operatives based in Manila, Philippines.

* MCS Philippines personnel have access, whether on a limited basis or not, to HSBC's database and telephone systems.

* It remains unclear whether MCS Philippines telephone agents are actually employed directly by MCS Ltd or by some other party. When asked directly who he was employed by, one such agent appeared to be unwilling or unable to answer the question.

 

Any thoughts? Am I over-estimating the significance of this whole Philippines issue? And anyway, is it worth progressing, what might be achieved?

 

EDIT: It's now becoming clear that those people in the Philippines claiming to be MCS are not MCS employees (MCS have no employees) and are more likely HSBC Philippines employees.

Edited by netg
See EDIT note in text
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I would need to check up, but I remember reading something about restrictions being placed on UK registered companies transferring personal data outside of the EEA (European Economic Area) and I am sure this forms part of their license arrangements with the FSA...

 

As I say, some reading and research, but this principle is lodged in my mind from previous acticities...

 

This would also apply to the Indian telephone centers so I think the banks must have found a way around this but it does need some further research.

 

That would seem to make sense, there ought to be some geographical restrictions, and EEA would seem the obvious one.

 

Not really sure where I'm going with this - the whole thing started because HSBC p****d me off so much by their actions

 

Thats why we are all here and I think you should follow your leads to see if what they are doing is legal

 

pete

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This would also apply to the Indian telephone centers...

 

Good point. Maybe it depends on the location of the controlling company, not the employee?

 

Thats why we are all here and I think you should follow your leads to see if what they are doing is legal

pete

 

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm kind of running out of ideas for where to go next. I expect I'll think of something though. Maybe firing some direct questions at HSBC themselves?

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* MCS Philippines personnel have access, whether on a limited basis or not, to HSBC's database and telephone systems.

* It remains unclear whether MCS Philippines telephone agents are actually employed directly by MCS Ltd or by some other party. When asked directly who he was employed by, one such agent appeared to be unwilling or unable to answer the question.

That now triggers a memory, and an experience of my own...I didn't have direct dealings with MCS, but my own HSBC threads chronicle an instance of my belliegerence in the face of a call to/from the Phillipines...my own gripe revolved around data security (i.e. they were unwilling to provide confirmation of who they were)

 

Bloody hell...do I really have to trawl through hundreds of my own posts here? I do remember contextualising against the relevant obligations regarding data privacy and security...have a scout (Spicey v HSBC) and you might find it before me...

 

I do remember checking up with Information Commissioners Office, and also Data Protection Act, and I think the gist ran along the lines of 'key contact data is allowable, with consideration to holding companies, but detailed personal data is disallowed...' In other words, a non EEA operation can hold contact information for the purposes of marketing etc, but they may not hold detailed account information...or something along those lines.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Of course, the other option is the HSBC/Midland conundrum. My own account/contract was taken out with Midland, and as such I guess I agreed to various data sharing policies. However, at no time did I acknowledge that HSBC were taking over my account, and as such I did not agree to any data sharing policies by HSBC...worth a second thought if it applies to you...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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If you actually mentioned 'Phillippines' in your thread Spiceskull, that should narrow your search down considerably..........:)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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PS - Don't bother mate, I tried that - didn't work.........:(:)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Of course, the other option is the HSBC/Midland conundrum. ...if it applies to you...

 

Interesting idea. My HSBC credit card was originally a Midland Access card, but my bank account was taken out directly with HSBC, much more recently, so probably a rather difficult line to take up. As an aside, one of my gripes with HSBC is that because they've closed my bank account (probably related to their administrative error but yet to be confirmed) I can't pay-off my HSBC credit card this month, as I have no other UK current account to pay it from! I've already complained to them about this, and insisted that I will not be liable for "late payment" charges nor interest resulting from not clearing the balance. I've asked them for instructions on how to make payment to my card account without having a current account, I'm not in the UK so it has to be done via the net or international transfer. The payment limit is this Monday, I doubt if they're going to reply in time, so it will be interesting to see what they do about it. Any option they come up with which results in additional cost to me (e.g. international bank transfer) will result in me going after them for reimbursement of the additional costs.

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If you actually mentioned 'Phillippines' in your thread Spiceskull, that should narrow your search down considerably..........:)
Oi...cheeky! CAG is about self help, not me doing all the research myself. By making the suggestions I did, it means other users get to view my thread, and they may find other interesting nuggets whilst they are searching...

 

But I will look, and yes, I think I am able to find the relevant threads. Mind you, my status has changed three times since the post, and I have gone under three separate names to boot...it may not be there anymore...

  • Haha 1

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Oi...cheeky! CAG is about self help, not me doing all the research myself. By making the suggestions I did, it means other users get to view my thread, and they may find other interesting nuggets whilst they are searching...

 

Sorry spiceskull - wasn't meant to be cheeky :o - just trying to save you a bit of work - but re-reading it I can see what you mean LOL!

And ,as I said I tried it - but it didn't come up with anything, so........

 

btw I see what you mean about all your posts too - :eek:

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Bloody hell...do I really have to trawl through hundreds of my own posts here?

 

Approximate date? That might help and any other key words (apart from Philippines :) I've had a look but so far ended up with too many results to wade through.

 

Also, it's occurred to me that as an alternative to the "data protection" angle, another angle might be "misleading information" - don't know what any relevant laws might be, but basically it seems to me that HSBC/MCS are deliberately spinning a yarn and trying to mislead customers into thinking there's no connection between HSBC and MCS when in reality there's one hell of a connection (did you see my update here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/151559-truth-about-mcs-metropolitan.html#post1609732 ?) Any laws being broken, or is it just a matter of ethics (lack of)?

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Okay...thanks to you wee boogers I have spent the last hour and a half trawling my threads. I found two that were relevant to HSBC contact centres contravening DP regs, but not specifically the overseas one. That means I will have to check all my letters from the last 30 months (thanks again guys!) because I do have a record of it somewhere...

 

Still, I can't be too grumpy. I needed a good laugh, and reading through my old claims posts, the letters, the tactics...that has really cheered me up, reminded me of the white hot zealotry we displayed in the early days, before the OFT case, and poked me with a reminder that I have unfinished business with HSBC...

 

So - good afternoon/bad afternoon, but one that has got my juices flowing. When I find the letter relating to the overseas call centre I will post it in here (not today)

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hey, that was quite painless, An extract from one of the many letters sent regarding DP issues, and the Phillipines contact centre:

Dear Ms D’Aubney,

 

Thank you for your letter of 30 June 2006, responding to the following issues on behalf of HSBC:

 

  • HSBC is investigating the matters you raise in relation to the alleged telephone call:”

I sincerely hope that HSBC is investigating this complaint seriously, and not simply labelling it as an “alleged” telephone call. Since the initial call on the Monday (26th) I received a further three calls on the days following (Tues, Wed and Thurs – 27th, 28th and 29th)

 

To dismiss any doubt regarding the “alleged” nature of the calls, I have full details, and a recording, of the call that took place on Thursday 29th. The initial caller was a call-centre operative, calling from the non-geographical number 0800 783 8422, and claiming to be calling from the HSBC call-centre in the Philippines. The call commenced at approximately 12:10 GMT, and the duration was precisely 59 minutes and 36 seconds.

 

This agent, calling on behalf of your client, repeatedly asked that I divulge my account security details. The excuse I was given as to why I should provide this information was that it was a requirement under the Data Protection Act. I explained to the caller that as the call was from an unknown number, and that as he would/could not verify that he was authorised to handle my security details, then I refused to disclose my personal security details. Furthermore, were I to do so, I would be in clear breach of s.4.1 of the Terms and Conditions of my account.

 

Further discussion left the issue unresolved, and I asked to be escalated to a Supervisor. A similar conversation ensued, and I asked to be escalated to a Manager. I was explicitly told that no manager was available. This was a direct lie, and in my mind a lie designed to entrap me into providing these security details, and thus breach the Ts&Cs.

 

Eventually I was transferred to a Manager. She identified herself as Vanessa Espanol, and purported to be the Site Manageress for the Philippines Call Centre. Again, I explained the position regarding security details, and that should I provide them I would be in breach of the Ts&Cs.

 

Eventually a compromise was reached, whereby I revealed only my Date Of Birth. This was sufficient for the Manageress to then reveal all my security details back to me, and to proceed to discuss my account in great detail. Clearly these actions by your client’s representatives are in clear breach of the Data Protection Act and internal and recognised security policies. I will therefore be submitting a complaint to the Information Commissioner regarding this breach.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hey, that was quite painless, An extract from one of the many letters sent regarding DP issues, and the Phillipines contact centre:

 

Did you get a reply? I take it at that time there was no pretence of them being "MCS" ?

 

This has really set me thinking. Suppose, hypothetically a criminal, "Mr. X" did the following:-

 

1. Set up one or more 0800 or 0500 numbers (VoIP lines, very easy). On one of them he sets up a recorded message "You were called by HSBC, no action is required on your part..." by taking a copy of the real (?!) HSBC message you get when you call 0800 7838422 (interestingly, that number hasn't changed since your dealings with them, same one that "MCS" apparently called me from.) On the second number he puts an answering message being a copy of the one you get when you call MCS on their 0500 number, and then have the call routed to him (in Russia, Nigeria or wherever!)

 

2. Set up a web-site, being an exact copy of the paymcs.com website, maybe http://www.mcspayments.com (domain available) but arranging for payments to come to his Russian/Nigerian bank account, and of course showing his 0500 telephone number in place of the real one.

 

3. Send out letters to a few thousand HSBC account holders. The letter would be an exact copy of the "real" MCS letter, other than showing his website and telephone number. Ok, he'd need to get their data from somewhere, but maybe from anyone who'd ever received a cheque from an HSBC customer and knew their name and address, or maybe by setting up some other [problem] to collect this data.

 

4. When people call his 0500 number, he asks them to confirm their security details, of course! Then he gives them a hard time about a bad debt. They would probably dispute it, so he gets to enter into a conversation with them, where he could say he needed to check details etc. With some clever questioning he could maybe get them to reveal their security code. Now, he can do two things, try and persuade them to visit the mcspayments.com website and make a payment, or much better, use the security details which he's now obtained to log-in to their HSBC online banking and transfer the balance of their account out to himself.

 

Setting up all of the above would be easy, except for getting names addresses and account numbers to send letters to, but that would not be impossible (for a suitably resourceful criminal organisation.) Getting someone to reveal their security code probably wouldn't be too hard, especially if you managed to stress them out about a supposed "overdue debt" first.

 

Now here's the real point - virtually zero difference in terms of what the customer sees, between the above [problem] scenario and the "real" scenario that I've just recently been put through by HSBC/MCS. I didn't get any official notification from HSBC authorising me to deal with MCS.

 

Incidentally, the "real" MCS (well, the real HSBC people pretending to be MCS) do not check security code (not with me, anyway) only first line of address and DOB.

 

Conclusion: Not sure really. However, since "MCS" are in reality "HSBC" and "MCS" do *not* check your security code but *do* have access to some of your account details etc, then maybe there's a security issue there?

Edited by netg
Changed from 1st to 3rd person in case anyone thought I would seriously consider doing this!
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Many security issues, and no, I never had dealings with MCS. However, I would strongly urge that you edit your post to the effect that you WOULD NOT consider setting up the phones/websites as you suggest, and that this is merely a hypothesis on how a fraud could be implemented.

 

But back to the point - DP issues, and especially security issues, are taken seriously by ICO, but it would seem that they are not so serious to companies, especiall when crossing recognised legal borders. My advice in this respect would be to deal only by letter, and should the dates overlap, then deal with the consequences retrospectively...after all, proving breaches after the event is a no brainer.

 

I would make DPA requests regarding MCS authority, and ask for all notes relating to the decisions made to pass your details to a third party. Yes, they may be part of HSBC, but there are also strict compliance guidelines to monitor 'chinese walls' - e.g. HSBC could not balance an account by siphoning funds from a First Direct account.

 

There needs to be a clear and accountable paper trail if they are externalising your data.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull makes a good point, thanks, so taking his advice: I'd like to confirm that of course that I would never consider actually doing the above myself! This type of thing is common knowledge, at least to anyone who knows anything at all about "phishing" - Phishing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - A worthwhile read to understand why you should be so careful with your personal details, obviously things like bank account information but also especially your email account and password. Anybody who gets access to your email could get access to your accounts on other systems by using "password reminder" features - from there they might obtain other personal data which could lead them on to other things, and so on.

 

So, back to the point.

 

I would make Data Protection Act requests regarding MCS authority, and ask for all notes relating to the decisions made to pass your details to a third party. Yes, they may be part of HSBC, but there are also strict compliance guidelines to monitor 'chinese walls' - e.g. HSBC could not balance an account by siphoning funds from a First Direct account.

 

That seems to be an angle. Castlebest believes (#2 in this same thread) that HSBC and MCS (UK) are already the same entity from a DP perspective, but obviously the crowd in the Philippines are another party. So, worthy of some thought and follow-up. What about my point in http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1609853.html

? "Misleading information" ?

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Just thought - that pretty much confirms that the Philippines crowd are actually HSBC Philippines employees, doesn't it? I mean, they're even using same 0800 phone number, now as "MCS" as they were a couple of years ago when there was no "MCS" pretence and they identified themselves as "HSBC Philippines". Maybe MCS were invented, in part, to avoid DP issues?

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