parking car offences - for a car I do not own

[pcn-fedup]

I have had 7 pcn's for a car I sold in November . The parking fines were committed fromn January onwards.

 

The garage signed the V5c form and I sent that off to DVLA. DVLA confirmed in a letter that I ceased to be the owner of the vehicle from the date I sold the vehicle - but the new owner had not notified DVLA.

 

When I got the PCN's (Notice to Owner) I notified the authority of who I sold the car to - their address . The authority wrote back and said 'We will pursue the new owner' .

Weeks passed and then I started gettinfg Charge Certificate ( 7 in all) - I spoke to the authority last month and they saiid send us a copy of your V5C form to avoid court action . I did as they requested .

This week I started getting 'Statutory Declaration' from the court - and has to be responded within 21 days - and it means it has to be signed by a solicitor .

I spoke to the authority again and they said that I am liable as the address on the V5C form does not exist - and so I am liable to pay the fines .

In between all this I have spoken to DVLA and have been to the police station 3 times - no one wants to pursue or help me - police are saying

fight it out in court when it comes , DVLA saying the authoirity will decide , the local authority are saying the fines need to be paid and that I am liable because I am still the registered owner of the vehicle .

What do I do - as if I dont send the statutory declaration I will have baliffs at my property !!!!!. and do I get all 7 signed and pay solicitors fees ????

I am getting stressed and really need help - I cannot afford legal advice .

What do I do - I dont own a car - but I am getting these fines for a car which I owned but sold 8 months ago . Please please help !!

 

Thankyou

[green_and_mean]

When you got the NTO you should have appealled on the grounds 'I was not the keeper/owner at the time of contravention' the Council should have either then cancelled the PCNs or issued a notice of rejection. How did you inform the Council phone, letter and what did the letter of reply actualy state?

[gwc1000]

Hi, I had exactly the same problem with a car I sold and the person gave a false address. I won at adjudication, as there is only a legal requirement to give the name and address of the new owner if you know it. You are not required to show proof, receipts etc. The Council are wrong, you are not liable. There is no legal requirement for you to do an identity check on the person who is buying a car from you. Also, IIRC if the Council admitted that they would pursue the new owner that would mean that they issued a new NTO thereby automatically cancelling yours. You cannot have two NTOs in two persons names for the same contravention floating about at the same time. The fact that the second NTO was undeliverable is not your concern.

[lamma]

which council is this ? some of them outsource this processing and 'mistakes happen'.

as you are no longer registered with the DVLA for this vehicle there is NO reason you should have got all this paper. this is either incompetence or deliberate.

Why you should have not got ANY PCNS at all for offences clearly dated after the date on the DVLA records. besides dealing with this sh1tstorm of paper also send rockets to the DVLA and the Council head of parking - and CC them on each other letters.

you should be asking for compensation having to deal with this.

 

get a copy of your record from the DVLA which shows when you ceased being the owner. Are the council saying your are still the RK in writing, if they haven't then get them to put it in writing - and then have them.

[Conniff]

DVLA confirmed in a letter that I ceased to be the owner of the vehicle from the date I sold the vehicle

 

Have you still got this letter? if so, it is all you require. No V5c or any other rubbish.

 

Let the council know you will see them in court and be asking for compensation.

[pcn-fedup]

When I received the 'Notice to Owner ' on the back of this there is

'Representation' section where I ticked the box 'I was not the owner/keeper of the vehicle at the time of contravention' -

I have had no letter from authority to appeal - instead I had Charge Notice and then Statutory Declaration.

Have they missed sending me the letter to appeal?????

What do I do ???

Getting the Statutory Declaration to be signed by a solicitor will incur a fee – and 2 have arrived in the post – 5 are pending . Why should I go through this pain ????

Do I qualify for compensation as it has caused so much stress , phone bills , and recorded delivery charge for the post , and time ???I still have the letter form DVLA – and the authority have too .- but still they’re after me

Is it worth getting a solicitor to fight this case .

What do I do ??? Been to police , contacted DVLA – still no joy .

Have the authority not given me the chance to appeal ???

These are basically the steps involved :

1) Notice to Owner sent - replied on the letter saying 'not the keeper/owner' and enclosed V5C form within 28 days

2) Then received letter from authority saying 'I can confirm that we have received your notification of the sale of the vehicle and the letter from DVLA stating the same. Please note that the 'Notice to Owner' will now be sent to the new owner of the vehicle ''

3) Charge Certificates (7 in all) sent by authority

I cant understand why as the 'Representations section' was filled in to make representations within time limit. Why wasn’t I given the chance to appeal???

3) Letter from authority saying 'You have failed to pay the Penalty charge due. In accordance with the h Road Traffic Act 1991, Notice to Owner and a Charge Certificate have been served……

The council will now register the penalty charge as a debt at the County court ………

4) Rang council that this is not right – they wrote back saying ‘Please send V5c document as proof of sale. Failure to provide aforementioned document wil result in court action being taken to recover the fines ‘.

5) sent V5C document again

6) Received ‘statutory Declaration from court

7) Rang authority again – they are saying I’m liable because they cant send the fines to this person who I sold the car to as the address does not exist ???

8) DVLA have wrote saying ‘;I can confirm that our records show that you cease to be the keeper of the vehicle from …… . Unfortunately, until the new keeper tells us in writing that they have aquired the vehicle our records will not be complete .’

[pcn-fedup]

Moderator's note....

Duplicate post removed.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Rooster-UK
Double-posted same post.

[Conniff]

Hang on a minute - are you sure this is a PCN from the council.

 

3) Letter from authority saying 'You have failed to pay the Penalty charge due. In accordance with the h Road Traffic Act 1991, Notice to Owner and a Charge Certificate have been served……

The council will now register the penalty charge as a debt at the County court ………

 

 

'In accordance with the road traffic act' - that sounds genuine

 

'The council will now register the penalty charge as a debt at the County court ' - you don't register a penalty, that's the sort of thing private parking companies say to frighten you, you get a summons to appear in court.

 

Can you scan and put one of these tickets up here for us to look at. Remove personal identification first.

 

 

It's really important that someone sees a copy of these tickets before you do anything else.

 

.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Conniff

[gwc1000]

Hi, first get the stat dec sorted. If you go to your local County Court to do this, there is no fee and you do not need an appointment.

 

Road Traffic Act 1991 Schedule 6 (2) ((5)):

 

(5) Where the ground mentioned in sub-paragraph (4)(a)(ii) above is relied on in any representations made under this paragraph, those representations must include a statement of the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was disposed of by the person making the representations (if that information is in his possession).

 

This information is not in your possesion, as the buyer lied to you, therefore you will win at adjudication, no problem.

The Council have admitted that they sent a NTO to the new (false) owner. This will cancel your NTO. They cannot just issue a charge certificate to you. They have failed to follow procedure. Bring all this up at adjudication.

 

In my own instance Barnet claimed as the person I had sold the car to didn't exist that I was liable and despite much correspondence they would not back down. At the hearing the adjudicator said to me: "You're right, Barnet are wrong but, you will never get them to admit it"

[pcn-fedup]

how do i post the scanned documents - ???

[pcn-fedup]

I have made Representations biut have not had 'Accept or Reject ' letter or a letter to Appeal - Looking at the Parking Penalty Enforcement process ' should there be not be wherby the Council Accept or Reject representations ???? Have the coucil missed any letter in between ?????

[gwc1000]

Yes you are correct. You should have received a rejection with details of how to appeal. Complete all stat decs and tick the box where it states:

I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice. Get them witnessed at your local County Court (no fee) and get them to the Traffic Enforcement Centre in Northampton.

[pcn-fedup]

Thanks for all the help and guidance I am receiving from all members -

 

One of the members - Conniff has said - Can you scan and put one of these tickets up here for us to look at. Remove personal identification first - t's really important that someone sees a copy of these tickets before you do anything

 

I have the scanned documents can someone advise how to get it uploaded on the forum ????????

[Michael Browne]

Scan it into your computer and open it in Paint or similar program. Edit out the personal information and save it

 

Open an a/c on Photobucket, (here: Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket ), download the file of your scan from your computer onto Photobucket and then post the link from Photobucket in your thread here.

 

See how to in section 1.16 (Attach Documents) here:

How Do I....? A Dummies Guide to the Forum

[pcn-fedup]

in reply to Conniff here are the scanned images of documents -

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/omi59/notice-towner.jpg

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/omi59/charge-certificate-1.jpg

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/omi59/predebt.jpg

 

 

Thankyou

[Lula]

You havnt left the address to send the payment to, or the address where it came from, just take your own personal details out, the address where it came from is important, thanks

[Conniff]

So that shows it is a council PCN.

 

Leicester Council website states:

 

This notice goes to the person believed to be the owner of the car, because under the Traffic Management Act 2004, s78, The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007and The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, it is the owner of the vehicle who is liable for any Penalty Charge Notices issued to it, irrespective of who the driver was. This is known as owner liability.

 

It also says under Owner Liability:

 

The law requires that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority is kept informed about the current keeper. If you sell a vehicle and fail to complete the relevant part of the vehicle registration document (‘log book’) you may receive Notices to Owner arising out of actions from the new owner. In this case, you will have to produce evidence to show the precise date that you sold the vehicle. This may be an invoice or receipt (for example from a motor dealer) and a letter from your insurers setting out when you transferred cover from the vehicle. This would also apply if you said that you actually bought the vehicle after the date the Penalty Charge Notice was issued.

 

 

You said

DVLA confirmed in a letter that I ceased to be the owner of the vehicle from the date I sold the vehicle

 

Do you still have that letter?

 

Get a letter as suggested by the Leicester Council from your insurer which will be added proof that you are not still the owner.

 

In the mean time, I would write to the office, by recorded delivery, and let them know that you are obtaining the required letter from your insurance company.

 

Don't hang about on this as if it should go through the courts then it will be a lot more trouble to resolve.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Conniff

[Conniff]

Hi Lula

 

It's in the second pic under the black box "Failure to pay........."

 

Leicester City Council Parking Team.

[gwc1000]

Leicester's website can say what it wants, but that is not what the RTA 1991 says. There is no requirement of any letter or invoice proving change of ownership under that Act.

The most important thing at this stage is to complete the stat decs, to start the process again so that the OP can get in front of an adjudicator.

[pcn-fedup]

This is the The Parking Penalty Enforcement Process - I'm wandering why in my case there was not Rejection Notice and it also states that 'The owner is informed of the right to appeal .....' I was not informed - I started getting the Charge Notices and thats how I found out ...

.

Leicester City Council - New Penalty Charges Apply

 

It doesnt make sense why I wasnt informed - its only when I phone dup that they say the address of the new owener is fake ??? How was I to know ???

[Conniff]

its only when I phone dup that they say the address of the new owener is fake ??? How was I to know ???

 

It's not your problem and not for you to sort out.

 

You sold the car in good faith and the DVLA has confirmed that the sale took place, end of story.

[gwc1000]

I'm wandering why in my case there was not Rejection Notice and it also states that 'The owner is informed of the right to appeal .....' I was not informed - I started getting the Charge Notices and thats how I found out ...

 

This seems to be quite a common occurrence. I am sure that it is done on purpose as a lot of people would just cave in at that point and pay up.

Have you done the stat decs?

[pcn-fedup]

I took stautory decarations to court and got them signed within 21days of receiving them - the court kept the papers . Today I received a letter from court saying that

'We are unable to process your form ;and so your correspondence is returned .

. You have sent in your stat. decllaration outside the time allowed. Please complete the enclosed aplication to file a 'Statutory declaration 'out of time' and return both forms together.

Please ensure you have have given clear reasons for filing the

statutory declaration out of time on your ''Out of Time' form ' and not your reasons for appeal.

 

Note : the declarations were signed in jul23 2008 in court and they kept the papers - they are stamped on the back as 14th august'

The declaration were sent to me on 7th July and i had them signed on 23rd july - then have I not obeyed the 21days rule ?????

[gwc1000]

But the Court should not have kept the stat decs. You should have sent them once signed and witnessed to TEC.

[pcn-fedup]

what should I do - when I went to sign the stat declaration the court said to me that your work is over - we'll do the rest - soI presumed they send it -

They have sent these decalration back to me together with 'statutory declaration out of time ' and I have to givve reaon for 'out of time' and have to go gto court again to get it signed.

 

all this is from the court .

From my council I have a letter dated 21st Jul 2008 saying We will pursue the new owner for the fines .....

Today I had a notice to owner (a new one ) for the same car which I do not own .

 

This in total is 8 fines .

On one hand I am getting statutory declarations 'out of time' forms - and on the other hand I am getting a letter from the local authority saying we will pursue the new owner for the fines (pcn references listed)

 

 

What should I do ???????????//

please help asap.

Thankyou in advance