Barclaycard wont accept payment.

[slick132]

Ahaa,

 

Then don't bother with the SAR.

[bazaar]

Hi just subbing, you dont need to SAR them as this is admitting a debt AFAIK. Its quite simple, no Credit Agreement, No payment, make sure you save all the correspondence etc, and sit tight til they try to make a move

good luck

[circatrova]

he Bazaar,

[circatrova]

Hello Slick or anyone helpfull,

Does anybody know of a good letter to say you are now in default and I will not be paying until CCA is produced,in a more elequent authoritive manner of course.

I mean just what do you do when Barclycard just ignore all your correspondence and I can predict will come on all strong with legal threats for non payment?

Any help appreciated.

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

I think you've pretty much said what's needed in post #29 and there's no need for any eloquence.

 

I'd write to confirm you will make no more pay'ts until they have the decency to respond to your letters. Then wait for them to make the next move.

 

Oh, and don't forget to report BC's failings to the FOS and Trading Standards.

[circatrova]

Hi Slick,

Can you or anyone help me with this,just rang the F.O.S to complain about Barclay card totally ignoring 2 written requests for CCA and lady told me it was nothing to do with them and not the sort of complaint they deal with and I must go to the Information commisioners as it is just a case of them not giving me information I have requested?.

 

Any help on this would be much appreciated .

Regards Circa.

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

Speak to the ICO - Information Commissioner's Office - ICO and see what they suggest.

[circatrova]

Hi Slick finally got a response from B.C .

As I have 2 CC accounts I requested 2 copies of CCA one for each account .

They have sent a very poor photocopy of a leaflet with terms and conditions on it,there is nothing filled in by anyone and obviously no signiture from myself.I dont think I need to post this up for acknowledgement of it not being the true agreement,but can you advise me on what next,are there any good letters to send when there is no proper CCA in place?.

On the second account they sent a letter saying they needed more to for their investigations.

All would be appreciated.

Circa

[bazaar]

Hi Circa

take a look in the templates section there is a letter you can use for this. just amend it to suit your situation, post back if you need more

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

This should do but amend it carefully as nec'y to suit your case:-

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE - Account Number: XXX

 

I refer to your letter of xxxx sent in reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions. It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that, whilst the request has not been complied with, the default continues.

 

Yours faithfully,

Circatrova

[circatrova]

Hi Slick,thank you for your help,can you just clarify for me:

Iam I understanding the item correctly under what may be omitted?

Siginature?,is that correct that a signiture or signiture box as in,

 

"The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies); "

Shouldnt it read may not be omitted?if not could you please explain in laymans terms,

All help appreciated,

Regards Circa

[circatrova]

Hi Circa

take a look in the templates section there is a letter you can use for this. just amend it to suit your situation, post back if you need more

 

Hi Bazaar,thanks ,had a look cant find anything suitable,would you be kind enough to help.

Many Thanks,

Circa

[bazaar]

Hi Bazaar,thanks ,had a look cant find anything suitable,would you be kind enough to help.

Many Thanks,

Circa

 

Slicks letter should more than put the point accross

[circatrova]

Slicks letter should more than put the point accross

Yep thanks for that Bazarr,but Slicks letter also confuses me with the legal speak from the Consumer credit act/law.

Thats why I asked for a brief description in Laymans terms to the part I had Highlighted.

Or if you can point me to the correct letter in the templates libruary,(maybe a more concise version)because I do not understand which bits are relevant to me in Slicks letter,

 

Hope you can help me ,

Many thanks

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

The letter is correct in confirming what may be omitted under SI 1983 1557.

 

I suggest you enter the correct date in para 1 of the letter and fire it off.

 

You're quite right in wanting to understand what you are doing and you'll find information about this by reading up on the Consumer Credit Act. Or try Googling SI 1983/1557.

[circatrova]

Hi Slick,

Sent off the letter as suggested and pointed out that illegible photocopies of T&Cs is not sufficient and got this reply ,can you please help ?.

Any idea what to send next,

Many Thanks in advance

Circa

 

I write further to the letter whereby you note disatisfaction to the documents you received to a request made under section 77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974

 

Firstly, credit cards are regulated under section 78. Section 78(1) of the act stated that the creditor shall give the debter a copy of the excuted agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. Regarding a statement of account which is practicable to refer, the letters which we send in responce to a section 78(1) request includes this information. To cover the issue of executed agreement.

 

HOW DOES THE ACT DEFINE AN 'EXECUTED AGREEMENT'?

 

'Executed agreement' is defined in section 189 of the Act as 'a document, signed by or on behalf of the parties, embodying the terms of a regulated agreement...'

 

WHAT DO THE RULES SAY ABOUT PROVIDING A COPY?

 

The consumer credit (cancellation notice and copies of documents) Regulations 1983 ('The Regulations') made under the act deal with how we are to provide a 'copy' of the agreeent. These regualtions provide that any copy of the agreement supplied to a debter should be a 'true' copy. Regulation 3(2) provides that a copy may omit certain information, which allows you to be provided with a true copy, not a complete copy.

 

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT HAS BEEN VARIED SINCE IT WAS ORIGINALLY SIGNED?

 

The regulation also set out what should happen where the agreement has been varied since it was signed. Regulation 7 provides creditors with a choice of including in the copy of the executed agreement either a copy of the latest notice of variation relating to each discrete term which has not been varied. Regulation 7 does NOT state that the copy of the agreement shall include a statement of the original terms as well as a statement of the varied terms. Regulation 7 allows us to provide you with a 'true copy' which sets out the terms and conditions current at the time of provision of the copy.

CONCLUSION IN RELATION TO THE DOCUMENT WE HAVE TO PROVIDE

 

A 'copy' of an agreement will satisfy the requirements even if the signature box and/or the signatures are not included as clarified by regulation 3(2) of the consumer credit (cancellation Notice and copies of documents) Regulations 1983

 

The definition of 'executed agreement' refers to a document embodying the terms of the regulated agreement. When this is read with with Regulation 7 - for agreements that have been varied - a copy of the original agreement would not embody its terms. A copy of the agreement as varied would embody its terms.

 

The issue of what is an executed agreeent has been interpreted in th High Court. It was held that an executed agreement begins as a credit agreement which is sent to the cardholder when they receive their credit card: therefore, establishing what is the original executed agreement. When the agreement has benn varied, Regulation 7 mentioned above applies.

 

To summarise, if the agreement has not been varied, we must send the origanal executed agreement: this would be the credit agreement which is currently regulated. If the credit agreement has been varied, we must send the current credit agreement as this will contain the terms of the regulated agreement. We have sent you this and the original executed agreement for reference.

 

I hope this letter has helped with your concerns about the documents you have been supplied with under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974. As our response fulfils the obligation under Section 78 of the Consumenr Credit Act 1974, you should carry on paying the debt you have accured on your account. We do not class the account in dispute, as you have been supplied with the relevent documentation under Section 78 of the Consumenr Credit Act 1974 and we will carry on with collection serices.

 

Yours Sincerly

 

Court Orders and Disclosures.

[tosh1]

Hi circatrova

 

I think bc are sending this type of letter to all people who request a cca. I have sent them a reply like the one below -

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

hope this helps.

[circatrova]

Hi Tosh,thank you for that.Can I ask if your letter/response to B/C has been tested ,have you had a reply?Has the author of this letter had a positive response?

 

I am not familiar with Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16),is this to be used if you are bringing legal/court action as a claimant?and can it only be used in this context,in other words: do you have to start action to use this protocol?.

 

I am really confused by the gobbledegook they have sent me and cant see how this mitigates the illegibility issue of the T&Cs they have sent me.,

Thanks again for taking the time Tosh1 and would still like to hear Slicks comments or any other experienced site members as this stadard relpy from B/C seems very dismissive and combative.

Any help always appreciated

Regards Circa

,

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

You may like to read this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[circatrova]

Hi Slick,Happy New Year

Thanks for the link to the thread,is this the right area to formulate a response,I find alot of this difficult to understand and could do with an explanation in laymans terms

 

Can you recommend the correct response to to the B/C letter containing the first heading HOW DOES THE ACT DEFINE AN 'EXECUTED AGREEMENT'?

 

Stuck what to write next,what line does the argument take?

Regards Circa

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

If you're going to try the CPR 31.16 route, don't worry about arguing the toss with BC.

 

Read through PT's thread and send off your letter to BC, or post it here if you want it checked first.

 

[circatrova]

Many Thanks Slick,

 

You say If you're going to try the CPR 31.16 route,can I ask what other options/directions are open to me?

 

I have read the thread you suggested and whilst it makes fascinating reading I found it to be somewhat ambiguous and inconclusive, with the costs issue seeming a real danger,I say that respectfully as i know the subject was intelligently debated.

Cant find much other giudance to follow the last letter from B/C ,if there is no other routes to follow at this time can you please let me know so as to make a decision on what to do next

 

Your Help much appreciated,

Circa

Edited December 31, 2008 by circatrova

[slick132]

Hi Circa,

 

The problem is that the CCA route usually ends up with an impasse. You argue the agreement, that they say is proper and valid, is not. They argue it is, and they'll continue to demand payment.

 

The bottom line is whether they, or Mercers or other DCA, issue court proceedings to enforce the "debt".

 

If you want to stick with the CCA route, that's fine but it'll drag on and they'll continue to press for payment and call repeatedly. This may die down when they realise you're not intimidated by their tactics and they'll move on to someone who they can bully more easily.

 

Rather than try and reply to the detail of their last letter, you can reply saying:-

 

You have failed to supply a copy of the executed Credit Agreement. While you may feel you have complied with your obligation to reply to my CCA request, without the signed Agreement, the debt cannot be enforced by a court.

If you cannot supply the signed Agreement, please confirm this in writing. I also require that you stop adding charges and interest to the account and remove any negative markers relating to the alleged debt from my credit records.

If you disagree, no dount you will issue court proceedings forthwith.

Just my suggestion and, if you hunt around, you'll find templates which say it all, but in a longer version. BC will probably ignore it anyway.

[circatrova]

Thank you Slick ,I totally agree with you on the CCA impasse,and I know some of this work is somewhat pioneering as maybe with CPR in this context,I just find the impasse and B/C total lack of sensible communication very frustrating.

 

I like difinitive answers and know now that in this case it is not always possible,the banks truly are a law unto themselves.

 

You response does give me an alternative line ,so I will now chew over and make a decision and act on it.

 

So thank you for help it is much appreciated.

Kind Regards Circa

[slick132]

I just find the impasse and B/C total lack of sensible communication very frustrating.....................the banks truly are a law unto themselves.

This is no coincidence - because there is no remedy or legal recourse to stop them doing this, they continue to try and frustrate and bamboozle peeps into giving up.