Natwest: Advice Needed for Claiming Back Charges

[yourbank]

If resonate sends the letter in the link provided he may not need to pay if Nat West agree to the POC being changed. As the application to amend is unlikely to fail, there is little point to them objecting to the amendment IMHO, unless they wish to appear obstructive to the court.

You know my court stuff is pretty rubbish. Am at the stage now where I can spot something wrong with a POC, can say N1 and that's roughly about it. Will remember the post for future reference, thanks.

[yourbank]

Yourbank, here's exactly what happened:

 

• I went into an Unarranged Overdraft by £6, at the end of a month
  
• I credited my account with enough money for an upcoming Direct Debit and the 'Referral Charge' that would no doubt be created by the Unarranged Overdraft
  
• The Direct Debit was not paid at the start of the next month (the Error), even though the balance indicated enough funds, and an 'Unpaid Item Fee' was immediately charged as a result
  
• The Referral Charge was taken soon after, creating another Unarranged Overdraft
  
• At the end of the month, a 'Maintenance Charge' was taken for the previous month's Unarranged Overdraft, and the day after (next month again) the same Direct Debit was not payed, along with another Unpaid Item Fee
  
• At the end of this next month, another Maintenance Charge was taken for the previous month's Unarranged Overdraft (which was created by the Referral Charge)
  
• Even though I had attempted to fix the issue in the very first instance, I lost control and I continued to be charged 'Maintenance Charges' for the next 8 months. One month I even gave my statements to someone else to work out how much to pay in, and even they got confused and got it wrong!
  

 

I detailed all of this in a letter to the Bank last October. Recalling it all again reminds me of how angry it makes me feel. Even though I clearly tried to sort out the issue immediately, they made things as difficult as possible. They now have the nerve to say that such treatment was fair and almost that they are in fact the victims.

 

The referral charge is when an item is paid which takes the account into unauthorised overdraft. I still cannot see bank error. Did you pay into the account in cash or cheque?

[resonate]

OK, I know what the Referral Charge was for, but this isn't what I say the error was. I say that the non-payment of another Direct Debit was an error (because I had credited more than enough to cover it), and hence that the associated Unpaid Item Fee was an error, which then unnecessarily cascaded into more charges. The credit I mention was made by card using phone bank.

[yourbank]

OK, I know what the Referral Charge was for, but this isn't what I say the error was. I say that the non-payment of another Direct Debit was an error (because I had credited more than enough to cover it), and hence that the associated Unpaid Item Fee was an error, which then unnecessarily cascaded into more charges. The credit I mention was made by card using phone bank.

 

Was it on the same day the Direct Debit was going out?

 

Can you clarify about using a card and phone bank cos I don't quite understand?

[caro]

You know my court stuff is pretty rubbish. Am at the stage now where I can spot something wrong with a POC, can say N1 and that's roughly about it. Will remember the post for future reference, thanks.

 

I know the feeling. I've progressed to posting links too now.

[resonate]

Three days before the Direct Debit was due I must have called Phone Bank and paid money into my account using a debit card (hard to remember exactly now as it was over 3.5 years ago!, but statement says "card").

 

Could you confirm that I should remove the bank error comments, the UCTA comment and the penalty comment from my N1 form ASAP?

[caro]

I would say so yes, although if it ever got to the stage of needing a witness statement you could include the error info there.

 

The important thing with the POC is that it shows the legal basis of your claim, which the template I linked you to does, taking into account the most recent developments in the OFT case against the banks.

[resonate]

Thanks Caro. Here's my amended POC, please let me know if it's appropriate (the new items are marked by --->):

 

These charges represent a penalty and do not accurately reflect the Defendant's administration costs. Further, they are contrary to the Unfair (Contract) Terms Act 1977 s.4 and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. para. 8 and sch. 2(1)(e). The Claimant also believes that the first of these charges was the result of a bank error, as the Claimant had enough funds for an outgoing Direct Debit but was still charged an 'Unpaid Item Fee' (£38 ).

 

---> Alternatively, if the charges are not penalties as alleged, then they are only unfair within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, as stated above, and therefore fully recoverable as they are invalid.

 

---> The allegation of contrariness to U©TA 1977 s.4 is retracted because this is not applicable to current accounts, making the allegation irrelevant.

 

---> The allegation of Bank Error is retracted as it is inappropriate for this Claim Form.

 

The charges the Claimant claims are: ...

[yourbank]

I know the feeling. I've progressed to posting links too now.

 

That's advanced stages

I never really get as far as reading the links until some poor unfortunate does so and I spot a hole a mile wide in what I read, lol.

[caro]

That's advanced stages

I never really get as far as reading the links until some poor unfortunate does so and I spot a hole a mile wide in what I read, lol.

 

Might be worth reading the links YB then you might get a better understanding of the advice CAG has to offer.

 

People have good reason for posting as they do.

[yourbank]

Might be worth reading the links YB then you might get a better understanding of the advice CAG has to offer.

 

People have good reason for posting as they do.

 

Caro, if I agreed with the advice I would(bank charges)

if I understood it(allocation questionnaire plus court related stuff) I would, if I understood the logic(hardship--best we don't go there) or CCA related(not my forte) and no one seems to do Credit Card charges reclaims anymore(I am really good at that part now) and under 18 years and charges(100% success rate but not that many cases on all forums).

It is usually part of the above as to why they post on the forum ie they don't get it or understand it(which covers my points really).

I think I am going a little astray so apologies to reasonate as myself and Caro got slightly sidetracked.

[resonate]

No problem. I'm glad this thread is active!

 

Can either of you comment on my proposed amendments to N1 form? I'm not sure of the correct language one should use, for example.

[caro]

Sorry resonate.

 

I would still suggest that you amend the particulars of claim completely to the ones I linked you to previously to make them as robust as possible. I believe they cover everything.

[resonate]

Hi Caro,

The link you sent me deals with changing penalties to UTCCR only. What should I do about the Bank Error and UCTA comments? Yourbank suggested I should remove these...

 

Bank error should have gone through the complaints process of the bank and if not resolved at that time you would have had recourse to the FOS. Please do not include that bank error stuff on your amended POC because, unless you get remission for fees, it will cost you to amend your claim. UCTA does not apply to personal accounts either which was why I asked you about that.

 

Is the way I worded it correct?...(the 1st comes from the link you gave me)

 

---> Alternatively, if the charges are not penalties as alleged, then they are only unfair within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, as stated above, and therefore fully recoverable as they are invalid.

 

---> The allegation of contrariness to U©TA 1977 s.4 is retracted because this is not applicable to current accounts, making the allegation irrelevant.

 

---> The allegation of Bank Error is retracted as it is inappropriate for this Claim Form.

[caro]

That seems to cover it resonate but the link below is probaby better. I don't see any reason not to amend the POC completely, as I think it will strengthen your claim.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/113-4-particulars-of-claim-n1-updated-version-now-available

[resonate]

OK thanks. Didn't think changing my POC completely was possible! Part of the link you sent looks a bit odd to me:

 

11.In the premises the terms imposing the charges are unfair within the meaning of Regulation 5 (1) and thus not binding on the Claimant under Regulation 8.

 

Doesn't seem to fit in. Any idea why it's labelled 11 (when 8, 9, 10 are missing), and what Regulations it's referring to?

[caro]

I don't see why they shouldn't be changed completely, but I'll seek further advice for you.

[resonate]

Thanks .

 

I've got letters to Bank's solicitors and Court prepared with amended N1 form, as I have shown earlier, waiting in their envelopes. Obviously want to get them sent ASAP. If I changed the form completely, would it not then not change what their defence would be, which they may not like? Or does this not matter? I will receive the defence/counterclaim at some point from the court, could I not respond to the counterclaim with the stuff in the link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/113-4-particulars-of-claim-n1-updated-version-now-available, or is it better to say as much as possible on the N1 in the first place?

 

Also, I phoned the court the other day, and turns out that there is some delay their end which explains why I haven't received official documentation from them with the defence/counterclaim.

 

Sorry for all the questions.

[caro]

It would only be reasonable to accept that they should amend their defence, and no they probably won't like that, but that isn't your worry. I would suggest that you write to their sols requesting their agreement to amend your claim, and at the same time agreeing to them amending their defence and counterclaim if they so choose.

 

It's best to get all you can in your N1 to avoid your claim being struck out, as they've said they'll apply for that or summary judgment in para 1 of their defence.

[resonate]

Thanks. I don't feel I can use what's in that link though, because I don't fully understand it. As I mentioned,

 

11. In the premises the terms imposing the charges are unfair within the meaning of Regulation 5 (1) and thus not binding on the Claimant under Regulation 8.

 

seems randomly placed, it's not clear what Regulations it's referencing and it's unclear where sections 8, 9, 10 even are. I can't send something that's inconsistent . I've seen so many examples of what one should put in POC for bank charges that I'm not sure what's right or wrong and I'm very confused.

[caro]

I have requested some advice. Holidays mean peeps I want to ask aren't around at the moment, but I'll do what I can to get advice. You're right to want to understand it.

 

Templates are only meant as a guide, so feel free to amend, if you think it's appropriate to. It's your claim after all.

[resonate]

Ah, help!

 

Sorry for all this. But I have just received today the official documentation from the court with the defence, counterclaim, allocation questionnaire and information on the Small Claims Mediation Service, which I have to reply to soon.

 

I'm really quite anxious and worried, but wondering if they've done this stupid defence and counterclaim just as a scare tactic. They are counterclaiming the exact amount I have claimed as fees for running my FREE bank account (for a 10-month period 3 years ago)! It's totally arbitrary.

 

I have urgent questions!...

 

1. Now that I've received this, is it too late to amend the N1 form as we've been discussing, or should I just do it? Can I try to do this without the N244 form first? (I.e. change the form and write "Amended Claim Form" at the top?).
    
   
2. Could I say anything about the fact that the T&Cs for the account say nowhere that I must pay for the whole "Current Account Package" only during periods when charges are debited, nor that the charges themselves represent fees payable for the provision of such a Package?
    
   
3. Should I bother with the Small Claims Mediation Service for this claim?
    
   
4. What does "no admissions are made as to what charges have been debited" mean? I gave a list of charges with dates, is that not good enough?
    
   
5. Do I need to prove each charge, i.e. attach bank statements to the N1 form? I had already sent the Bank all this information.
    
   

[resonate]

OK, I think the link:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/113-4-particulars-of-claim-n1-updated-version-now-available

 

was just a bit unclear with the sections/subsections. I found the same stuff in the link:

 

Particulars Of Claim - Consumer Wiki

 

which is more clear to me. The word "penalty" still seems to be used though, which I thought was wrong??

 

I have produced an amended POC based on the above. Out of the 5 questions I asked in my last post, the most important now are number 1, (i.e. can I make this amendment even though I have received Allocation Questionnaire?) and number 3 (i.e. shall I bother with mediation service? - can't see Bank bothering with it). Answers to all would be very welcomed!

[caro]

Penalty is wrong.

 

1. You can amend whenever you like.

 

2. You could certainly use the information in the defence of the counterclaim.

 

3. Assuming you gave the defendants the opportunity to remedy the situation before resorting to court, I wouldn't worry about mediation.

 

4. I would say your schedule of charges is fine,

 

5 When the time comes to prepare a court bundle, you can use the statements to support your claim.

 

Please don't worry so much about it. Of course they're trying to scare you and put you off continuing with the claim. What they need to understand is that you're calling the shots now, and THEY have to account for their actions. YOU are taking control of the situation now.

 

And penalty should most definitely not be used in your POC.

 

I'm really sorry that I haven't managed to get better answers to your questions about the other POC.

Edited July 22, 2009 by caro

[resonate]

Thanks Caro. I really appreciate all your advice and comments. No worries that you haven't found more info on that POC. I think someone should look at it though to check it's all OK. I reformatted it for my purposes so that all the section/subsection numbers were correct, I hope.

 

I've sent an amended form now, with the POC attached because it's so long! Let's hope they agree to it. Should I fill out the Allocation Questionnaire now or wait to see what they say to the amendment?

 

Yeh, I wrote to them 3 times to remedy the situation before taking this court action:

 

• The 1st time I accidentally asked for the 8% interest and had an automated response anyway.
  
• The 2nd time I corrected myself, removing the 8% and demanded a personal reply over an automated one. I received a personal, but still negative, reply.
  
• I waited for a while, then after being unjustly hounded by their Collections Department (I was well within my agreed overdraft, and had been for 2 years!), I wrote for a 3rd time where I explained why I thought there had been a Bank Error in the first place, giving the proof, but they chose to ignore it, and said in no uncertain terms that charges will not be refunded.