Is a "What to do Next" Flow Chart possible?

[stikky62]

Would it be possible for one of the more experienced/professional members of this site to put a "what to do next" flow chart together? ( and Sticky it )

 

You know the sort of thing ~ start off, for example, with a "Sent CCA" box,,,,which then leads off to a "No CCA returned" or "CCA returned",,,these then leading maybe to a "send S.A.R" or "send reminder to DCA" or "verify CCA is enforceable" or "Do nothing, the onus is on them to legally supply the info",,,,whatever the possible next step could be.

 

Im sure this could save many a member hours of hard slog (and worry)reading threads or creating new ones to find the info they're in need of.

Just a thought.

[pennypitsop]

I'd find that really useful too.!

 

Good idea Stikky

[dannyboy660]

That's not a bad idea.

 

I'm sure one of the Site Helpers could do a rough draft and then we could hammer out the 'what if's' and 'maybe's' on a separate thread - because I'm sure you'll find that there won't be 100% agreement on what the next step would be in a given situation.

 

There are some (a minority, perhaps ) of us who champion the "deal with your creditor or their inhouse agents, but if third parties get involved ignore them completely" approach.

[stikky62]

Bump

 

If anyone else reads this and thinks its a good idea also,,,please say so.

 

This must be one of the fastest posting forums on t'interweb and i dont want it to get lost before those that could make such a chart get to see it.

 

Thanks

[creditcardmug]

Hmmm... seems a good idea on the face of it , but everyones circumstances are bit different. and a lot of people need help and support, also the DCAs/OCs have different tactics, so a general one might be possible, but i don't think it will work very well in a lot of cases

[Rooster-UK]

Hmmm... seems a good idea on the face of it , but everyones circumstances are bit different. and a lot of people need help and support, also the DCAs/OCs have different tactics, so a general one might be possible, but i don't think it will work very well in a lot of cases

Got it in one!

 

A flow chart would be very useful, but in this case, impossible to implement.

As an example, think of a family tree. You start with one couple, who have five children who marry and have their own children, etc.

Then after a few generations, cousins intermarry [Yes! It IS legal], they have children and on it goes. After only a few generations you run out of paper and have to stick more down the sides to get it all on.

That's just a simple linear path....Hatched, Matched and Despatched and throwing out more paths along the way.

 

Each bank, credit company, DCA, etc has to be dealt with in different ways. To try and deal with them all the same way would very quickly lead to grief. What is true for one could be totally false for another. There are just too many variables involved.

 

As an exercise, try to draw your own family tree or if you work for a large company, the chain of command from the Managing Director down adding all the cross connections between the different branches.

Both of those exercises, though time-consuming are perfectly possible to do.

 

The claim process is not a static thing. If you tried to claim charges today, using the same methods and routes that were successful when the site started, you would probably have less than a 30% chance of success.

Banks, etc are constantly striving to beat the claims by throwing up smoke-screens, by delay tactics, by, for example, offering you a goodwill gesture then claiming that you accepted it as full settlement.

Or as happens with some of the more unscrupulous DCAs. You send £1 for a CCA on an old debt. They then bank the £1 and claim it was a payment, thus resetting the six year statute barred period.

 

That is one of the background jobs carried out by the team. Devising and discussing new ways of countering the latest underhand practices of the enemy. It is something that takes up considerable time.

 

Another good example is a computer virus. Initially there was only one. So someone devised an antivirus program to get rid of it. Then someone wrote another virus, different from the first. The antivirus prog didn't work so they had to devise a new data file that would deal with both viruses. Next day, another four viruses apppeared, all different and unaffected by the AV prog. AV prog now needed a new file to cover the first two plus the four new ones...... And so it goes on.

 

One simple method is not going to work, unfortunately, as procedures change every day.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[Sparkles100]

While I agree with Rooster, I am noone to disagree, just starting out on this road...

 

I have been trying to put together a step by step what to do next chart for myself just as a starting point using other threads on here.

 

I am sure my circumstances aren't much different to anyone else's. Creditor defaults, hands to DCA, they start harrasment, I send CCA and SAR just to get some idea of the situation. At this point, weith up my options. That is as far as I have got so far really. I have about 10 form letters cut and pasted and a number of relevant paragraphs from other threads all in a word document which I am trying to make sense of at the moment (information overload normally on here after 30 mins reading).

 

A very simple step by step with various options for perhaps 2-3 scenarios would be really useful...I am sure it would stop the volume of "Help I have no Idea What To Do" threads that seem to appear every day.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Sparkles

[Captain Spaulding]

I think this is dooable... Something like

 

Is debt secured - yes/no

 

If no, send prove it letter

 

On reply of prove it letter, was evidence produced - yes/no

 

If no, look into complaints procedure/OFT/etc (if yes, was it a CCA)

 

CCA - is it a true agreement or application form / does it have proper terms?

 

If no, write back explaining (if yes, is debt unacknowledged for > 6 years?)

 

If yes, statute barred letter

 

Etc etc etc

 

Keep it simple and it will work!

[Captain Spaulding]

Oh and more than happy to process map this if someone can help define the process

[linz2011]

excellent idea in principle but quite difficult to do i would imagine

[stikky62]

Good points all round and obviously it wouldn't work 100% with all cases but i still think its a very good starting point. If anyone had doubts about their particular case in relation to the chart, they could always ask for better and more advice.

 

A couple of points you mentioned Rooster which are sort of niggling at me:

 

Banks, etc are constantly striving to beat the claims by throwing up smoke-screens, by delay tactics, by, for example, offering you a goodwill gesture then claiming that you accepted it as full settlement

So you'd have a "goodwill gesture received" box leading to something else advising what to do next. Maybe it would loop back to an earlier box,,,i dunno. This is the whole point of the chart ~ a quick guide to look at and give you an overview of possible actions to take before making any decisions.

 

 

Or as happens with some of the more unscrupulous DCAs. You send £1 for a CCA on an old debt. They then bank the £1 and claim it was a payment, thus resetting the six year statute barred period.

As the advice here is always to send things recorded delivery and keep a copy of the original letter,,, how could they get away with this? You have the proof you've CCA'd, wouldn't that just make them out to be liars should it ever get to court. Again, there would be a box leading to info on what to do should this happen. I must say though, send a CCA is said so many times and theres never a mention of them doing this ~ not that i've read (to date).

 

That is one of the background jobs carried out by the team. Devising and discussing new ways of countering the latest underhand practices of the enemy.

I applaud your team tremendously (you're lifesavers) but all that would then be necessary is to update the Chart as and when required ~ surely? ( hmmmm,,,am i hinting at one of the team making this chart? )

 

 

I'm struggling at the moment to find a good enough reason why this isn't plausible but if you far more wise and experienced chappies dont think it will work,,,then fair enough. T'was just an idea i thought might help quite a lot of people. I'm in the same boat as sparkles100; lots of form letters copied to my PC and an ever increasing number of links in my favs folder. So many now i'm starting to lose track of whats what..lol I know a flow chart would certainly help me keep track and give me more confidence in what i was doing. The sit and wait game has you wondering if you're really doing the right thing.

 

Anyway, like i said it was just an idea. If you say it can't be done i'll accept that.

 

Keep up the good work, you guys n gals are saints i.m.o :grin:

[gizmo111]

I see the reasoning behind the flow chart idea and input and ideas from the mmebers who are looking forthe information is always welcome and is how CAG has progressed to th size it has. However I don't think a chart will work, but what about a list of bullet points on dealing with DCA's, with links to threads/stickies that have further information. Would that help?

[Rooster-UK]

If you want to try, feel free. As far as defining the process, that is where the trouble starts. You're happily motoring down the path you've set and a DCA throws a dead rat into the pot. They've found a loophole which allows them to ambush you from behind.

You send the £1 and CCA them on a debt which is fast approaching the 6-year mark. You think, "This will stop them."

Guess what! They've paid the £1 into your account and now your account won't be statute barred for another six years. You've paid a £1 into your account....you've acknowledged the debt.

Now what do you do? You remember seeing a letter in the templates library that might help. You can't find it! Of course you can't! it's been removed because it no longer works because of the loophole that the DCAs have found.

It's been in the "backrooms" for the last week being discussed by the team and amendments made and changes in the wording of the text to try to block the loophole. Eventually we have a reworked document which should defeat them.....until the weekend, when they chuck a bag of spanners in. They're behind you again!!!

 

That is literally what it is like... all the time.

As fast as we plug a hole, they find or make another.

 

Could your flow-chart keep up with that. It certainly is a nice idea, but realistically, with the best will in the world, I don't think it could.

Remember, if it falls behind, even one step, then other user's claims will be lost. People could lose their homes and be made bankrupt by following a guide that was inaccurate.

 

I've been here since a couple of months after the site was started and I would not even attempt to try to define the process. It changes all the time.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[stikky62]

Out of interest, how long has this site been here? (a friend asked earlier and i had no idea)

Im guessing, from what you said Rooster, late 2005 / early 2006?

Edited June 25, 2008 by stikky62

[gizmo111]

Out of interest, how long has this site been here? (a friend asked earlier and i had no idea)

 

Jan 06

[Rooster-UK]

The site was started on 10th January 2006.

[Fighting-Fit]

In theory this is a great idea stikky62 . I can understand though what Rooster is saying and we do not want anyone slipping up because of out of date advice. I do feel though that we should have something in place for new members who are not as savay about the first steps to take and not 100% sure of the site and how safe it is. When that first phishing letter lands on your doormat out of the blue, panic sets in. We stumble across this site (usually by googling the DCA) and scramble around the site weaning information like a person possessed. In my case I was not confident enough to post my own thread. I was unsure of the validity of the site. Don't forget we got this site by googling the DCA. We were in a state of panic, is the site safe, is it a trap. These are the first feelings we get when that first letter arrives. We need to do all we can to help new members in the first steps to dealing with underhand DCA's. As a first point of call possibly with the read this before using the forum information a what to do next charter would work. Even if it is just the first steps to take until new members found their feet on the site. I like Sparkle scrambled around cutting and pasting everything I thought would be useful to my case. It is very easy to have information overload when you first start using this site. Surely we shouldn't let this great idea slip us by. ;-)

[rory32]

However I don't think a chart will work,

Neither do I, although in principle it is a good idea.

but what about a list of bullet points on dealing with DCA's, with links to threads/stickies that have further information. Would that help?

I think this is a better idea and would perhaps point people in the right direction without the information overload that new users, quite understandbly, sometimes have.

[Percival Wigglesbottom]

It could work for the initial stages , say when you first get a fishing letter from a dca .. ie :

 

{event} Receive spurious letter from company requesting contact.

{response} do nothing, no writing letters or phoning them up

{event} hear no more

{response} goto END

{event} they continue to send letters

{response} send a 'prove it' letter

{event} hear no more

{respone} goto END

{event} continue to get begging letters without adequate response to prove it letter

{response} Do as you threatened to do in the letter , contact the OFT , TS, send them a formal complaint

{event} They send proof ( hypothetical)

{response} Make a thread on CAG asking what to do showing the nature of their evidence so it can be inspected. [ Any grey areas etc where the flowchart could go in multiple directions, ie here where the nature of the 'proof' could be various , put down post on CAG ]

 

 

etc

Edited June 26, 2008 by Percival Wigglesbottom

[Fighting-Fit]

Bump, wev'e not forgot about this thread have we guy's.

[Pinky69]

In my view you need to stay flexible in your approach and when people post for the first time they may be upset and information needs to be spelled out in a clear and concise way so they know the exact details of the advice they are being given and why they are being given it, what the procedure is and the law pertaining to it. People post for advice that is relevant to what is happening to them and for reassurance - we are all made differently and for some posters to take on the banks or DCA is awesome at a time when they are at their lowest. This site isn't just about information - it is also about reassurance and building confidence and you cannot do that with an information flow chart.

[Fighting-Fit]

Hi Pinky. I agree with you in the fact that we are all made different and this site has members who will reassure other members. Nobody is suggesting that an information chart (in whatever workable form possible) will take the place of any advice already available on here. In fact the opposite. It is suggested that it may work as an addition to what is already available therefore enhancing the service offered here. It would be beneficial to new members as their first port of call. Individual advice will continue as it does now. The fact that new members on this post are totally for this bears that out. I feel it deserves more debate and thank you for participating in the debate. I do agree with everything you point out but as I say in my earlier post I still remember that feeling when my first letter from a DCA hit the doormat. It takes a while before we got used to navigating around the site and most new members are not ready to post instantly. A first port of call information chart imho would enhance the already fantastic service of this site.

[GroundControl]

whilst I agree with the previous comments the fact remains that most people DO NOT know the sequence that should occur with most debts/claims of debts and what should Occur thereafter this can be put in a simple table form with an exception box if not 100% (giving a link to post in the forum)but a least they would not be worried that they are going to have thier property removed imediately or the balifs etc.thats my two peneth !!

[Pinky69]

There is no sequence that "should" occur - there is no set pattern for any given type of debt or any type of financial institution and insight into the way different banks and DCAs operate can only be gained by experience. There is a wealth of experience on the site gained by many different people. Some institutions are best pursued, some are best ignored and some information is just totally confusing. For example - someone sends a CCA to a certain DCA. The link on the chart says "After 12 days company defaults and goes into dispute". But a lot can happen in that 12 days:

 

There may be a letter from a solicitor to say they are going to apply for a Charging Order

 

There may be another letter from another DCA saying they now have the account - before the CCA request has even reached the first DCA

 

There may be phone calls from both the DCA and the solicitor

 

There may be a card to say they are sending an agent to call at the house

 

The £1 can be returned with a letter to say they don't have to send you a copy of the agreement

 

The £1 could be paid towards the debt in the case of it being statute barred - what do you do then if you have only been on site a few days?

 

The link on the chart then says "After a further 30 days the company commits an offence and you should report them to Trading Standards"

 

 

But within that time period there could be offers of reductions on outstanding debts, full and final settlement offers, threats of baillifs, more harrassment,phone calls to your work, phone calls to your auntie, agents at your parents door - there is no set pattern of what will happen after a request for a copy of a credit agreement and breaches of the CCA 1974 don't tell us very much about the behaviour of DCAs or appropriate responses to them. There needs to be detailed advice on the laws that pertain to debt, careful examination of copies of credit agreements, specialised advice on how different agencies work and very exact advice on procedures in the event of court action. You won't get any of that on a chart and in my view there is no alternative to the personal approach that if you want advice on YOUR problem, ask. Yes, there is a wealth of information spread out over the site and that's because there is a lot to learn. It takes a bit of searching around to find what your are looking for but the statutes and procedures run into volumes and you cannot find all of that on one page. If I cannot find something I am looking for I just ask because there is always someone who knows. There is no quick fix to dealing appropriately with debt problems - it takes knowledge and patience and most of all a lot of good advice appropriate to YOUR problem.

[Fighting-Fit]

Hi Pinky. I agree with you in the fact that we are all made different and this site has members who will reassure other members. Nobody is suggesting that an information chart (in whatever workable form possible) will take the place of any advice already available on here. In fact the opposite. It is suggested that it may work as an addition to what is already available therefore enhancing the service offered here. It would be beneficial to new members as their first port of call. Individual advice will continue as it does now. The fact that new members on this post are totally for this bears that out. I feel it deserves more debate and thank you for participating in the debate. I do agree with everything you point out but as I say in my earlier post I still remember that feeling when my first letter from a DCA hit the doormat. It takes a while before we got used to navigating around the site and most new members are not ready to post instantly. A first port of call information chart imho would enhance the already fantastic service of this site.