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Multay

A & L - Enforcable Agreement???

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Hi,

 

I have been avidly reading the forums for some weeks now and have to say how impressed I am by the wealth of knowledge on here.

 

I was wondering if I could steal some of your expertise and get an opinion on my problem.

 

I have just recieved a copy of my Credit Agreement from the Alliance and Leicester for my Credit Card.

 

The document is quite a few pages long but appears to comply with requirements. My question is simple - does it?

 

The doc is as follows.

 

Page 1 is titled "credit agreement" and is a photocopy. It has my name, address, credit limit, PPI requirements, consumer credit agreement statement and a handwritten reference number at the top of the page in a pre-printed box.

Page 2 (is also a photocopy) has a big "customer declaration" blurb and signatures of myself and the A&L bod. Also athough there is a reference number box the same as the page before, there has not been any number written in it. - But no-where is there any reference to the intereste rate.

 

The next pages look like the are a current printout of the T&C's that do contain interest rate etc. I have not signed this document at all.

 

As I understand the Consumer credit act, the credit agreement HAS to contain the interest percentage for it to become enforceable.

 

Is this correct?

 

I will scan the document in the next couple of days but until then, any ideas what I should do - Admit deafeat or carry on fighting?...:?

 

Thanks.


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If it has no interest rate then it will be unenforceable but it's best to wait until you have scanned and posted them so they can be looked at in detail. Remember to cover over all your personal details before you post.

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Subscribing...


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

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Thanks, should be able to get the original on tomorrow. Assuming this is unenforceable, what should I do next? Send them a letter to tell them so whilst quoting the relevent sections of the credit act?

 

Cheers,


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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Sub

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i really don't know what you mean by "sub" - Please explain....


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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You can send them a letter informing them that they haven't fulfilled your request and why what they have sent you is unenforceable. It's better to wait until the 12(plus 2) days have passed before you do this, after which time they are in default of your request and you don't have to pay them a penny until they do send you a true copy of the original agreement.

 

People "subscribe" to push your post further up the page for answers. There are some professional "subbers" around here as you can see!:D

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Cheers,,,,I realised I was being a dumb a*s just after I asked about subs...hehe

 

They are already outside of the 12+2 - I sent the request on the 27th.May...

 

I can't find the interest rate or repayment info anywhere on the signed copy - It's in the T&C's that are attached and obviously a different document from the latest revision not the original - The late fee's and stuff are all 12 quid even though the account was taken out in 2002.

 

Is there a template for the letter I need to send?

 

I will load up the original tomorrow though - Just to be sure before tajing them on...

 

Cheers Guys..


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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This will apply to your case if they fail to supply the correct info within the timescales:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

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Hi,

 

I have attached scans of the docs - I think. Would you be kind enough to have a look and tell me what you think I should do next. I'm assuming I should use one of the standard letter templates but any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

A&L1.jpg

A&L2.jpg

A&L3.jpg


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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Sorry guys - Tiny thumbnails...How do I use photobucket???Can't find any instructions...

 

Apologies for being a pain in the @rse...:confused:


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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Sorry - they are not coming up properly so they can be enlarged.

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I've never used it but there is a link on here - someone will come along with it:-)

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Hi,

 

Sorted it out.

 

Here is the agreement itself pages one and two.

 

The third page is the First page of the T&C's which are just the latest version.

 

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk44/Multay/AL1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk44/Multay/AL2.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk44/Multay/AL3.jpg

 

Hopefully this should be clear enough...Any help is greatly appreciated..

 

Thanks,


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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If this is the quality of the document they sent you, it is totally illegible and they must send you a legible copy. The original of this would never be enforceable in court becuase you cannot read it. What they have sent you is an application form - it has no reference to an APR so does not fulfill the requirements for prescribed terms - with a set of Terms and Conditions tagged on that bears no relationship whatsoever to the form. Your application was in 2002 - these Terms and Conditions pertain to agreements after 2004.

Also, it goes from Page 1 to Page 3 then the Terms and Conditions - where are Pages 2 and 4?

 

So there is your letter - they have not fulfilled your request under the CCA 1974 as the document they sent you is 1) illegible 2) an application form without full prescribed terms (don't tell them what is missing - don't do their job for them) 3) is incomplete with pages missing. In addition the Terms and Conditions do not pertain to the alleged agreement and they have not sent you statements as required by the Act. They are now in default of your request and until such times as they send you a true copy of the agreement requested, the alleged debt is in dispute and any enforcement action on their part will be contrary to the CCA 1974, the Administration of Justice Act 1970 Section 40 and OFT guidelines.

 

In other words, they can bog off with this load of cobblers and not return unless they can find a proper agreement!:grin:

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Cheers for that Pinky - Didn't even notice the missing page!!!!

 

Do you think the missing page could detail the APR etc? Mind, I suppose if they had it then they would have sent it...;)

 

I'll put together a letter and post it on here before I send it.

 

They have also got RMA on my case with this so I CCA'd them too but they are still ringing everyday and I've had nothing through the post.

It will be interesting to see if they come up with anything different to A&L.Is it woth telling A&L to call their RMA dogs off???

 

Thanks,


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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When did/does the 12 + 2 working days expire for supplying CCA request?


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

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Hi Again,

 

Here's my letter - What do you think???????

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER

 

23/06/08

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On 27th.May, 2008 I wrote to A&L requesting that Customer Service supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

You have not fulfilled my request under the CCA 1974 as the document sent is:

 

1) Illegible

2) Without full prescribed terms.

3) Incomplete with pages missing.

 

In addition the Terms and Conditions do not pertain to the alleged agreement as required by the Act.

You are now in default of your request and until such times as they send you a true copy of the agreement requested, the alleged debt is in dispute and any enforcement action on their part will be contrary to the CCA 1974, the Administration of Justice Act 1970 Section 40 and OFT guidelines.

 

I therefore, request that you also instruct the RMA to cease attempts to claim the alleged debt.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

Further more, since the prescribed terms do not appear within the agreement you have supplied, the agreement is rendered totally unenforceable, as the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not a separate document, case law confirms this opinion

 

I refer you to the judgment of TUCKEY LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

”[11] Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Sch 6, but some does not. Contrasting

the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said:

 

"33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states:

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment”

 

 

As it stands, the document supplied by you is not a valid credit agreement nor is it enforceable by any court

 

Firstly, I require all correspondence in writing from here on; any persistent attempts to contact me by phone will be reported to Trading Standards.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you for this debt, a mere copy of the same agreement will not suffice. If you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case.

Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

Yours Faithfully,


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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Hi Babybear - I sent the original on the 27th.May to A&L so allowing for the 14 working days so it ran out on the 17th.June - didn't get this replay till last Thursday so they were outside anyway.

But I sent The CCA request to RMA on the 6th.June - I did it to shut them up really - But it hasn't made any difference!!!

 

Cheers,


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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Fine letter.

 

Also report them to Trading Standards if they exceed the final calender month to comply using the information in this thread:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html

Edited by babybear39
forgot something

"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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Corrections - "you are now in default of my request" - and " until such times as you send me" - apart from that - go for it!

 

The CCAs were sent on 27 May so the 12 (plus 2 days) were up on 16 June.

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That makes the summary criminal offence date the 15th July.


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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We were not talking about the summary criminal offence - we were talking about pursuant action whilst the account is in dispute - and it is now in dispute.

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Yes I know, I was being helpful by advising the date the OP can report them to TS if they don't comply.


"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts. All my knowledge has been gained here, for which I'm very grateful. I'm a Journalist, not a law professional.

 

If you do PM, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private ;)

BB 13 - DCAs/banks and solicitors 0.

 

I get a fresh start to get on with learning to live with severe disabilities when they could have had something if they'd been understanding...

 

<--- If you feel I've helped, please twinkle my star :)

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So the letter is good to go then?????

 

Cheers Gjuys, really appreciate the advice....;0)


:)** Any opinion expressed by me is given with the best intentions - But I could be wrong so bear that in mind**:)

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