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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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RBS, defaults, DCA's and SAR - answers please?


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OK guys, here we go.

 

Made redundant from work in october 2000,

 

 

long story short all my creditors went default before I got back into work.

 

 

RBS particularly harsh, really dragged their heels concerning my PPI claim etc.

 

 

When my personal loan and royalties account overfdraft went default, I got battered for charges.

 

 

Been paying them back since may 2001,

never missed a payment,

always made the increases when asked.

 

 

Over the years I've received letters from their CMS in telford and another company (whose name escapes me but I will dig it out)

who appear to be a DCA acting on their behalf.

 

 

Payments always made on time into my account at my local branch, using my account number and sort code.

 

 

2 months ago CMS telford wrote to me with instruction to now pay into a different account number and sort code.

 

 

Have recently received another letter from CMS telford asking for an increase in payments that I just cannot meet.

 

 

Not particularly scared about this as they simply cannot have what I haven't got.

 

Question is, can I S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them and claim back anything?

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HI

First step is as you say make a SAR and see what information they are holding specifcally request all the details of your account opening documentation and this is what people do not realise they may be able to hide behaind the CCA and not provide a copy of the executed credit agreement BUT under the Data Protection Act they are obliged to supply you with a copy of that very document.

 

sparkie

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HI

specifcally request all the details of your account opening documentation and this is what people do not realise they may be able to hide behaind the CCA and not provide a copy of the executed credit agreement BUT under the Data Protection Act they are obliged to supply you with a copy of that very document.

 

sparkie

 

 

thanks for the response, please humour me as I'm a newbie!!

 

When I request this information, what exactly am I asking for and how will it be useful to me? what sort of delay tactics can I expect and how do I deal with them?

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HI There is a template letter in the library which gives you all that info have a look.

The delay tactic they use in order not to comply with the 40 day limit is that they will say you have not supplied them with enough information so make it clear and supply them with enough info that they would require to locate all the data held on you.

sparkie

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I've been paying robinson way since 2001.

 

 

I've never missed a payment and always met the increases (until recently, big argument on phone

I requested transcript for call they backed down - different story for another thread)

 

I recently came across this forum and have been harvesting advice ever since.

 

 

I now have a question.

 

 

I am going to CCA robinson way this week,

once I have can I stop paying my monthly payments until they respond?

Or am I obliged to carry on making payments whilst awaiting a response?

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bugger!! payment's due on 20th,

 

 

thought I could stop straight away while waiting for a reply.

 

 

I've only got 2 payments before the account is cleared (it has gone the distance, it is NOT an early settlement)

 

 

what's the chances of claiming something back as I'm sure when this went default in 2001 they LOADED the charges on?

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They will have 40 days to provide you the information, add the time to process all the information and calculate what they have overcharged and the subsequent correspondence / litigation, it is most likely your account will be paid off by then, so it wont be set off your account .

 

It'll be limited to 6 years .

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sent off a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) today, but I need to know if I'll be able to claim back charges from 2001, as this was when LOTS of charges were applied to my current account/credit cards/personal loans.

 

What do you think my chances are?

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normally just the 1st 6 years but no harm in trying

PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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Push them on the absence of Manual Intervention sheets if they are not enclosed when you receive your package from RBS. Write stating that you don't hold the SAR to be fulfilled if this is the case (which is likely).

 

Then complain to the ICO, if they haven't complied after the 40 day period:

Information Commissioner's Office - ICO

 

These can demostrate whether account charges made are automated, or have had human action.

 

The majority of processes relating to overdrafts, over the limit and late payment charges are all automated as industry standard. As such a charge made as a large IT system is going to cost alot less than those where human involvement takes part.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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thanks for the replies and support,

 

 

stupid question but once I get my "package"

 

 

how do I actually instigate a claim?

 

 

Also is it worth me trying to claim charges etc from 2001 or is it too long ago?

 

 

I ask because this is when the bulk of the charges were applied

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OK, when you get your package you should make a note of all your penalty charges including when they were deducted from your account.

 

Then make a spreadsheet listing them all, including a column for 8% statutory interest if your claim proceeds to court.

 

There is a template in the templates section, failling that PM me and i'll do one for you.

 

With regards to charges that are older than 6 years, there are arguements which some people have effectively used to claim these - think there was a thread in the General column.

 

Next is to approach your bank with a preliminary letter, followed 14 days later by a letter before action (again templates in the templates section).

 

Then if you have no joy, file an N1 claim form at your county court including the correct fee - theres a guide to litigation here - but probably best to look into that once you consider submitting your N1 form.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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I CCA'd robinson way last week. Got home from work today and got this response:

 

RE ACCOUNT REF: **********

 

We refer to the above account and acknowledge your letter.

 

We advise that this debt has been legally assigned to us and that our assignment is an assignment of rights and not the duties of the creditor under section 189(1) of the consumer credit act. Our assignment gives us the rights to collect the debt; but we ourselves are not lenders, and are not obliged to provide you with any copy documentation. You are however within your rights to contact RBS/NatWest.

 

As legal assignee under section 136 of the law of property act 1925, we are entitled to pursue you for sums due under the asignment. In addition we are also entitled to process your data.

 

Even if you were to demonstrate that there was a failure under the Consumer Credit Act by abbey national PLC, rendering this account unenforceable, this does not mean that you do not owe the sum due. We note that since our assignment in may 2001 you have made a payment in total of £2110.00 and that you have never disputed ownership of the outstanding debt. We therefore have a legal requirement to accurately reflect the account status with the credit reference agencies.

 

We trust this clarifies our position.

 

Signed: **************

 

 

They also returned my £1:00 postal order. What do I do now? I thought they had to furnish me with a copy of the CCA on request or am I mistaken?

 

ADVICE PLEASE

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Guest forgottenone

Someone with more knowledge will be along but it looks like the kind of letter I've seen around CAG re CCA requests/replies. Far as I know, they have to supply it regardless. Standard brush off. If I am wrong, I am wrong. Not really very confident on this front, you see ... hence my own self doubt ... :D

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Dear XXXXXX

 

Acc No XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Re: Statutory request pursuant to Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/2008, the contents of which are noted. I must draw your attention to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute.

 

On the xx/xx/2008 I wrote to your company requesting that you provide a copy of the written contract, in this case the credit agreement upon which this debt, which you claim a right to recover is based. You will no doubt be aware that this debt is credit as defined within the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and as a result, pursuant to section 78(1) of the Act I may demand a copy of the credit agreement at any time as long as the statutory fee of £1 is paid.

 

Your response to my request leaves me a little confused, I must point out that it would appear that you have mis interpreted the law as your response has major inaccuracies within it

 

Firstly you state that you purchased the debt, and have the right to collect and add interest. Let me clear this up for you, you may have the right to collect or attempt to collect but any right to add interest would be based upon the contract. Since you cannot provide a copy of the contract, I would have to ask under what provision of law do you believe allows you a right to add outside of the written contract?

 

Secondly, you state that you are not the original creditor nor did you provide the original credit facility. Now then, either way, you have a duty to ensure that the correct documentation is provided.

 

If you are assigned a debt and the assignment is absolute, it would come within section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925. Now surely you will be aware of the definition of “Creditor” within the consumer credit Act 1974, section 189(1) of the CCA 1974 states

 

"creditor " means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor

 

 

Therefore if you are claiming that the assignment is absolute you have the same duties as were placed upon the original creditor and MUST supply me on demand with a true copy of the original agreement. However, if you purport that the assignment is merely equitable and not absolute I.e. you have the rights but none of the responsibilities under the agreement, then I draw your attention to section 175 of the CCA 1974

 

175.Duty of persons deemed to be agents.

 

Where under this Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement, he shall be deemed to be under a contractual duty to the creditor or owner to transmit the notice, or remit the payment, to him forthwith

 

So clearly, you would have a duty to pass my statutory request on to **CREDITOR** for them to supply the information, I would like to point out that the OFT guidelines on debt collection make it clear that all collection activities should cease while a reasonably disputed debt is investigated and you seem not to have placed the account on hold which Is in breach of those guidelines

 

Also since you cannot provide a copy of the credit agreement, this debt becomes unenforceable in law, furthermore, any rights to process my personal data and defame my credit file would be contained within the written contract, the contract which you do not appear tohave!

 

Im sure I don’t need to go over the vast amount of case law that has been before the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords but I will outline the facts from the Judgment of LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD in the House of Lords Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

 

 

 

 

29. The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order.

 

Clearly No Credit Agreement, containing the prescribed terms as per Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 Schedule 6 Column 2 and signed by the debtor, that can be produced before the court means the court cannot enforce the debt. This is mirrored in the following cases….

 

Wilson and another v. Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

London North Securities Ltd & Mr and Mrs. Meadows [2005] EWCA Civ 956,

 

 

Dimond v. Lovell - [2000] Q.B. 216,

 

 

Rankine v Barclays Bank Plc [2005]

 

 

Im sure your legal department will be aware of these cases, but should they not be fully conversant, then I can provide copies of the judgments

 

To clarify my position

 

 

I do not have any debt with your organisation, I do not acknowledge any debt with your organisation and I shall not enter into any negotiations to settle any debt you claim I have with your organisation

 

Until such time that you can produce before me a copy of the credit agreement containing the prescribed terms in the prescribed form bearing my signature, I will not discuss this matter further. Further more, I put you on notice that any further attempts to collect this debt or any harassment by your company to coerce me into paying you monies before you provide me the documents that I requested, then I shall issue you a letter before claim, complying with the pre action protocol Para 4.3 placing you on notice that I will be issuing proceedings in the xxxxxxx County Court against your organisation seeking a judicial ruling pursuant to section 142(1) of the CCA 1974 to determine the validity of this debt. I must point out that the court has the power to discharge a debtor from their obligations under section 142 and I am advised that any action that I could bring under that section has an excellent prospect of success as the facts stand and furthermore I would ask the court to consider costs in this matter

 

I again invite you to provide access to the original agreement showing that it contains the prescribed terms and is signed by both the original creditor and myself. If you are unable to do so, then I would invite you to give consideration to writing the balance off and closing the account

 

I am mindful of the fact that litigation would lead to added costs and time on both sides and therefore I urge you to consider this situation and act accordingly, from the advice I have received it is clear to me that I have a good prospect of success based upon these arguments and I do not wish to have to press this issue before the courts unless totally necessary.

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter within 14 days setting out your position

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi

 

they are talking utter tosh,

 

 

heres a letter i used to rip (In) Aktiv Capital apart a while ago,

 

feel free to use and modify it to suit your circumstances

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OH Dear this old attempt by RWC at evading ther responsibilities

 

They are the Creditor by virtue of S 189 of the CCA 1974

 

“creditor” means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor;

 

 

They try to wriggle out of it by using the Law of Property Act. To have the debt assigned under the LOP they would have to be absolute assignees. Therefore not only would they have the rights of the alleged debt but also the responsibilities.

 

If they do not have your CCA it is their responsibility to request it from the original creditor by virtue of S175 of the CCA 1974

 

175 Duty of persons deemed to be agents

Where under this Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement, he shall be deemed to be under a contractual duty to the creditor or owner to transmit the notice, or remit the payment, to him forthwith.

I suggest you make a formal complaint to RWC, Trading Standards, The OFT and your MP. You may wish to query their suitability to hold a Consumer Credit Licence if they cannot get something so simple correct.

You have made a lawful request which they have failed to comply with. It does not matter how many payments you may or may not have made you can request a CCA at ANY time,

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Hi

 

they are talking utter tosh,

 

 

heres a letter i used to rip (In) Aktiv Capital apart a while ago,

 

feel free to use and modify it to suit your circumstances

 

 

Thanks for the quick response, to clarify so far:

 

They are trying to confuse me with their stated examples of law in the hope that I will be convinced that I am wrong and just go away?

 

that this letter is a typical delay tactic?

 

that it actually looks like they cannot furnish me with a copy of the original agreement and therefore all monies I have paid them over the last 7 years they are not entitled to?

 

 

I also just need to clarify a point in your example letter - your letter says that,

 

"To clarify my position

 

 

I do not have any debt with your organisation, I do not acknowledge any debt with your organisation and I shall not enter into any negotiations to settle any debt you claim I have with your organisation"

 

my problem is that I have acknowledged the debt and have been paying it since may 2001. Does this change anything? also, what do I do with the postal order? do I resubmit another CCA including the example letter you posted and send them the postal order again and start another 12 day countdown?

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Thanks for the quick response, to clarify so far:

 

They are trying to confuse me with their stated examples of law in the hope that I will be convinced that I am wrong and just go away? Exactley,

 

that this letter is a typical delay tactic? No its a Load of Ball Hooks thats what it is

 

that it actually looks like they cannot furnish me with a copy of the original agreement and therefore all monies I have paid them over the last 7 years they are not entitled to? Ah a murky area of law, you are stating that you are entitled to restitution due to payment by mistake of Fact and/ or Law

 

i think its best not to tread that ground;)

 

I also just need to clarify a point in your example letter - your letter says that,

 

"To clarify my position

 

 

I do not have any debt with your organisation, I do not acknowledge any debt with your organisation and I shall not enter into any negotiations to settle any debt you claim I have with your organisation" You can refuse to acknowledge a debt at any point, especially given that they have failed to comply with a lawful CCA request

 

my problem is that I have acknowledged the debt and have been paying it since may 2001. Does this change anything? also, what do I do with the postal order? Spend it on whatever do I resubmit another CCA including the example letter you posted and send them the postal order again and start another 12 day countdown?Nope id just send em the letter, they have had the CCA request and it remains outstanding

 

 

....:)

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holy poop you guys are good!!

 

OK - this is what I've got so far:

 

I send them the example letter contained in your response

 

I'll give them the remainder of their 12 days to furnish the CCA before making the next move

 

Do I continue making payments to the account? Is there anything at all I can claim back from these simian mouth breathers 'cos I'm now fizzing that they've trousered over 2grand of my hard earned that they might not be entitled to? Not to mention the stress, the sleepless nights etc they've caused me by pushing up the repayments to a level that I couldn't afford without taking a second job (now working 2jobs, 7 days 60 hours a week) not to mention sometimes increasing the repayments without prior warning/discussion

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