private ticket on council owned land

[meursault]

Hi all,

 

I have a friend who works for a company located in a business park owned by the local authority. The car park for this facility operates on a displayed permit basis. Recently the local authority passed the operation of the permit scheme to a private company. My friend was issued a new permit for parking under the new scheme but forgot to display it one day and got a fine ("details of contraventions against of parking regulations") stuck to their car.

 

I'm looking for some advice on a couple points here:

 

1) as the car park is owned by the local authority, is this covered under the road traffic act? The ticket bears the private company's name not the council's.

 

2) Is it reasonable to demand payment considering that ordinarily there is no parking fee to pay? The employer pays rent at the site so its not like any financial loss has resulted.

 

3) Is it reasonable to demand an amount in excess (nearly double) of what the local authority normally demand for parking offences on the public highway.

 

4) probably a minor point but the small bag containing the notice which was stuck to the car claimed it was an offence for it to be removed by anyone other than the driver. Is that legal if this is not a road traffic offence and in fact a civil (contract) matter?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice given.

[patdavies]

Any answers depend on the basis by which the ticket was issued.

 

Please scan, was and post the ticket in order that we may make considered responses.

[meursault]

Hi, thanks for replying.

 

I don't have the facility to scan the parking notice, sorry. I've checked it to make sure its the proper format and it appears to be correct.

 

I thought I had pretty much explained the basis it was issued under but if there's anything specific you need to know then please let me know. One thing I will say though, I won't provide any specific details which I think will identify my friend.

 

I don't wish to appear paranoid but its not hard to imagine parking companies joining this forum.

[patdavies]

I thought I had pretty much explained the basis it was issued under but if there's anything specific you need to know then please let me know. One thing I will say though, I won't provide any specific details which I think will identify my friend.

 

The main question is "Is this a private ticket (ie invoice) or are the private company acting as agents for the Council and it is therefore a de facto council ticket?"

 

On the ticket, does it say that it is issued on behalf of the council?

 

Is there any legislation quoted in or near the header?

 

What is the actual ticket header (eg Parking Charge Notice, Excess Charge Notice, Penalty Charge notice,)?

[meursault]

From what I remember there is no mention of the council on the ticket. Nor does it say issued on behalf of the council.

 

I will check the ticket this evening to make sure and post back with definite details.

 

Thanks for being more specific. Sorry if I seem a little paranoid!

[lamma]

NCP do do outsourced council ticketing.

but there are issues with that is some locations.

Is this NCP Services ltd ?

What is the authority ?

 

both question would be answered by pictures of course.

if you don't have a scanner do you have a digital camera - or a mobile phone with a digital camera built-in ?

[meursault]

No its not NCP.

 

Guys I appreciate your help on this. I'll try to get a pic on here tonight so you can see the exact wording.

 

From memory I'm pretty certain it said "Parking Charge Notice" and didn't refer to any legislation. I will post definite details this evening.

[lamma]

Thanks - look forward to seeing them.

[meursault]

hi,

 

struggling to get a decent pic of the ticket as its quite small and my phone camera is rubbish.

 

In the meantime I'll type some in:

 

In red at the top

 

"Unauthroised persons must not remove or interfere with this ticket. Please read the notes on the rear of this parking ticket""

 

"Details of contravention against parking restrictions"

 

Location of vehicle

Date parking ticket issued

Time parking ticket issued

Date vehicle was seen in contravention

Time vehicle was seen in contravention

reason why ticket was issued

vehicle registration

make

model & colour

 

Signed & dated by the parking employee.

 

The charge payable is £100

 

If this parking charge notice is paid within fourteen days the fee will be reduced to £70

 

After fourteen days the full amount is due and payable

 

Details overleaf will tell you how to make payment

 

On the back:

 

VAT number

In red: "Please keep part 1 for your reference"

 

PAyment of parking charge notice

If this charge notice is paid within fourteen days the fee will be reduced to the amount shown overleaf. After fourteen days the full amount is due and payable.

 

Non payment of parking charge notice

 

If payment is not recieved within fourteen days of the date this parking ticket was issued the fee will be passed to our recovery department who will apply to the DVLA for the registered keeper details. As a resultof this administration fees will be incurred. If payment is still not received then the debt will be pursued through the courts and additional administration fees and court costs will be incurred.

 

Then there's some more stuff, pretty much repeating what they have already said and giving payment details.

 

In answer to earlier questions, there is no mention of the local authority's name. Only the company WJ Parking of Exeter. There is also no mention of any legal statute.

 

Hope that helps, let me know if you need any more.

 

PS is there any way of forcing them to provide evidence that the parking permit was not displayed?

[patdavies]

Don't bother even asking them to provide evidence.

 

It is a private ticket - it is unenforceable

 

The give-away is the provision of a VAT number. Council PCNs are exempt VAT

 

Read these two threads:

Private Parking Companies/Charges - Advice Paper (everything you need to know)

 

Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters

 

You will get a lot of bluff, bluster, threats and down right lies form them. Either use the template letters or simply ignore them

 

Do not pay.

[lamma]

also looks fraudulent (fraud act 2006 section 2).

 

would be good to see a picture - know anyone with a snazzier phone ?

[meursault]

fraudulent.....really? could you explain why? I find it quite interesting so would be good to hear why.

 

I will try to get a pic of the parking notice on here. I'll borrow a digital camera off a mate and get a pic of it.

 

One thing I should add.....apparently the council have CCTV in the car park so they might well have proof my friend was the driver. But from the sound of what you guys are saying its not going to be necessary to rely on that.

[lamma]

lets see the ticket first. comments based on it being a PPC one.

 

CCTV does not identify anyone. if oit does you will be able to name these people

Photos of people groups. Low-cost royalty-free crowd photos. Cheap quality people images. Affordable professional people groups pictures. Inexpensive people groups photo stock. Immediate crew photo download. Instant crowd photo delivery. Buy & Downlo

[meursault]

I've got some pictures now but it won't let me post images. Is there any way to get my permissions changed?

[lamma]

try using imageshack or similar and just post links to the pics.

 

(Mods, is that allowed ?)

[meursault]

hi,

 

don't know if anyone is still watching this thread but its time for an update.

 

I have been written to by the parking company demanding £130. Being a bit busy with work and stuff I let the side down a bit and forgot to reply. I have since been contacted by a debt collection agency demanding I pay the £130 or they will take me to county court and my credit rating could be adversely affected.

 

So, I decided to get my act together and I used two letters from the template letters thread. One to the parking company to say take it up with the driver and one to the debt agenct to say I've written to the principal to dispute the alleged debt, please take it up with them.

 

It will be interesting to see what they have to say.

[Mossycat]

Good move

 

Now all you have to do is wait, the toothless wonders that are the debt collection agency will threaten all sorts in their letters and will use scare tactics such as 'adverse effect on your credit rating, removal of goods to satisfy the debt, etc etc'. In reality they can DO NOTHING of the sort until you have gone to Court (unlikely) and lost (even more unlikely).

 

Sit back and wait, eventually the PPC will realise you are not going to be scared into paying something that you don't have to and they will move on to someone else. If you get any doubts post back here for re-assurance or to tell us they have given up

 

Mossy

[meursault]

Hi all,

 

as yet I have had no follow up letters from either the parking company or the debt collection company.

 

I do have some news though. A friend has told me that they have heard that the parking company WP Parking have gone bankrupt. This is third hand news so I don't know how reliable it is but i'm told the it originated from a source at the council.

 

If true this is good news I guess, although you guys had made me pretty confident this would eventually go away so its just a bonus really.

 

Cheers.

[lamma]

More will go the same way - as money tightens people will not just sit back and pay these [problem] invoices. A large number will look on the web and find this forum (and the other one). Councils will get snarled up with appeals as well but they have a duty to provide enough back office staff to deal with appeals

[Al27]

I heard that they'd gone into administration too.

[Barnsley Boy]

From Lamma's posting - from another WJ thread:

 

In the Exeter County Court No 3009 of 2008 W J PARKING LIMITED (Company Number 04427096) Nature of Business: Car park management services. Registered Office of Company: c/o Bishop Fleming, Stratus House, Emperor Way, Exeter, Devon, EX1 3QS. Date of Appointment: 22 August 2008. Joint Administrators’ Names and Address: Jeremiah Anthony O'Sullivan and Samuel Jonathan Talby (IP Nos 8333 and 9404), both of Bishop Fleming, 2nd Floor Stratus House, Emperor Way, Exeter Business Park, Exeter, Devon, EX1 3QS. just search the gazette for the company number. nice to have the addresses of the directors of the PPC as well in case you wish to write directly

 

The website still works though - what's the chances of a phoenix rising from the ashes?

Edited September 30, 2008 by Barnsley Boy
trouble with links

[meursault]

Someone I know has had a "ticket" off WJ in the last month or so. I guess that means they are back in business.

[lamma]

as they are in Administration (see Companies House entry Company No. 04427096) their paperwork should now be different to abide by Co House rules. Any chance of a picture of this latest piece of junk - suitably washed of personal details