Bankruptcy Petition

[roystc]

Hi all this is my first post I'm not good at this. I currently don't keep good health and had my own financial problems but was getting them sorted through a debt company Gregory. Now a company from an ex girlfriends bankruptcy have been chasing me for something called undervalue for £27500 because I cannot prove the money was owed to me out of a property we sold!! although I do not believe this is my debt I could not afford to fight them and was quoted £13500 by an insolvency solicitor. I signed to accept £27500 or go to court and get £46600 with costs. I have been unable to raise the money but have offered security in the property and the debt company have offered them £111.00 a month but they refuse to talk to them and have gone ahead and petitioned for my bankruptcy. Nothing was done underhand it was done through solicitors but they are willing to make me bankrupt for someone else's debt. Truth is I cannot afford to fight these people they have been ruthless and its made me ill. Will a judge see sense and ask them to take payments at the hearing? I am willing to make payments for someone else's debts and they want to ruin my life too? Any help or information would be of help thanks:confused:

[Docman]

Hi Roy, welcome to CAG.

I think I know what may have happened but I need to know a few more facts but without any personal details that identify you.

Am I right in thinking that your ex-girlfriend went bankrupt sometime ago and that before she went bankrupt, she sold you her house or her share in a house you both owned?

If an asset belonging to a bankrupt is sold or otherwise disposed of within a certain period before the bankruptcy at a price that is below its true value, then the bankrupt's 'Trustee in Bankruptcy' can claim the difference (the undervalue) from the person who bought the property.

If there was a sale, what were the amounts involved? Any mortgage on the property? And if there was a mortgage, was it in joint names?

Sorry to go on, but when the property was sold, did an estate agent handle the sale?

Doc

[roystc]

Hi thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes her house was sold and we split the money for what money I was owed out of the property. I understand they can go back 5 years for the money which in my mind is crazy. I haven't got £27500 to give them and have tried offering them payments but they dont want to know they just want to make me bankrupt. So on July the 7th they will make me bankrupt as I belive the judge wont want to know either. Why wont they take a payment do they enjoy ruining peoples lives? Thanks again for the reply.

[Docman]

Don't be too sure about the judge. They don't make bankruptcy orders lightly. Most that get made are because the defendant doesn't turn up. You've still got a few days to prepare. A few more questions first, I'm afraid, so I can understand the position.

When you say 'her house' do you mean that it was registered SOLELY in her name, i.e. your name was not on the deeds. If you didn't have your name on the deeds, how long were you together and did you contribute to the running of the house, paying rates and other bills?

Also when you and your ex sold the property, did you do it through an estate agent and if so, did you get more than one valuation?

Finally, when you say "I signed to accept £27500 or go to court ", what do you mean and what did you sign?

Sorry to be a pain asking but it will help to advise you.

[boavista1952]

Hi Roy, welcome to CAG.

I think I know what may have happened but I need to know a few more facts but without any personal details that identify you.

Am I right in thinking that your ex-girlfriend went bankrupt sometime ago and that before she went bankrupt, she sold you her house or her share in a house you both owned?

If an asset belonging to a bankrupt is sold or otherwise disposed of within a certain period before the bankruptcy at a price that is below its true value, then the bankrupt's 'Trustee in Bankruptcy' can claim the difference (the undervalue) from the person who bought the property.

If there was a sale, what were the amounts involved? Any mortgage on the property? And if there was a mortgage, was it in joint names?

Sorry to go on, but when the property was sold, did an estate agent handle the sale?

Doc

 

Surely it's only the OR or Trustee in Bankruptcy that can make that call ... I didn't think a creditor could chase an ex-partner for shortfalls!

 

Boa...

[roystc]

The house was in her name I met her 2001 and she was going through a divorce and had a little girl. She bought the house in the summer of 2001 and yes I helped with the bills as well I furnished it put new bathroom and kitchen and generaly tidied it up heaters weren't working general stuff. She sold the house in 2004 I needed my money out to buy a house next door to my mother and father and generaly weren't getting on. They have asked for reciepts but were talking 5 years ago I dont keep them anyway I'm not in business or nothing. Yes it went through an estate agent nothing was done underhand the money was transfered through the solicitor who asked her did she want a hold on the property and she said no it was what I was owed. She was left with about £10000 so was solvent at the time and run her debt up after and went bankrupt in January 2006. Unfortunatly I've had a lot of bad luck with my health this last year and spent most of it in hospital with a firm of solicitors Beechcroft chasing me for £30000. I have been left with poor mobility after 3 operations on my neck and got out of hospital January the 7th 2008 only to have a letter waiting for me from them. It said that they would accept £27500 or I could go to court with little chance of winning and would get £46600 with costs. I could not afford to fight these people I asked an insolvency solicitors to represent me and they quoted me £13500 by the time I got to court with no guarentee of winning. That would've left me with £61000 to pay so I decided to accept the £27500 and try and raise it out of the property:-( I tried and in todays current lending climate couldnt so they issued a statutory demand for the money I applied to have it put to one side but was declined. I offered security of the money in the property and payments through a financial management company of £111.00 a month. They dont want to know and have petitioned for my bankruptcy on July the 7th 2008. I cant belive I'm offering to pay someone elses debt and they wont accept it and want to ruin my life as well by putting my parents out of their family home for 30 years by making me bankrupt. Its a long story I know and cant belive it is happening to me. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[roystc]

Beechcroft are a team of solicitors working for her Trustee I belive, so are not interested in any type of payment. I dont think its justice if you cant afford to defend yourself I cant afford £13500 that solicitors wanted to represent me.

[boavista1952]

It would appear to me that they are clinging onto the fact that you seemingly offered to pay 27.5k and these proceedings have been initiated as a result of the failure to satisfy the Statutory Demand.

 

My personal bankruptcy experience was a shed load of years ago and I'm not altogether sure that I can help ... but i'm sure someone will be along shortly to give some really good advice.

 

Keep your chin-up ......

 

Boa

[roystc]

Thanks Boa for taking the time to read through it. I just want it to go away to be honest have never heard nothing like it it's making me ill. I'm just hoping the judge sees sense who has got £27500 to give away there is only just that amount of equity in the property. Thanks again.

[PI Guy]

I still don't understand why you owe them any money? can you explain a bit more?

[roystc]

I dont understand the law either it is crazy. Because I cant prove that she owed me the money after the sale of the house 2 years later when she went bankrupt they came after me for the money for something they call undervalue? basicly I think it stinks and I cant fight these people I dont have that sort of money. So they can do what they like and petition for my bankruptcy because I cant come up with reciepts from over 5 years ago.

[boavista1952]

Is the 'trustee in bankruptcy' saying that your ex-girlfriend sold the house and paid you the money in order to avoid paying it to her creditors?

 

Was she solvent at the time she paid you the money or was she insolvent and sold the house to pay you in preference over her other creditors?

 

Boa...

[roystc]

I think they must be saying that but I have spoke to her and she said she was solvent at the time and had 8-10K in her bank. So she had no creditors at the time so she wasn't avoiding anyone but has ran the debt up then gone bankrupt on bad advice she said.

[Docman]

Hi Roystc

 

Thanks for clarifying things.

 

Yes a trustee in bankruptcy can go after assets that have been sold below its true value within 5 years prior to the bankruptcy. However there are two points here I will need to check when I'm back in work on Monday.

 

Firstly, is whether there can be a sale at an undervalue if you had an estate agent selling the property. If you & your ex had sold the house privately, there is always the chance that you sold at below the market rate. However, if you sold at a price advised by an estate agent, there isn't a sale at an undervalue, almost by definition. It may be that there wasn't a sale at an undervalue but that you have received a 'gift' of £27,500. But to bring an action, I think the trustee has to be able to show that your ex was insolvent at the time. If she was still solvent after paying you out, there isn't a gift. I need to check this out.

 

The second point is that if two people live together for a period and both contribute to the running and upkeep of the property, but only one person has their name on the deeds, the second person can still have a claim on the proceeds. In other words, if you were together during the period that the value of the house went up, you could claim half the value of the increase as yours anyway. It wasn't a gift. Again I need to check that out.

 

That's the good news I'm afraid. The down side is you have failed to satisfy the Stat demand and have left it late. But let's deal with that later.

[roystc]

Yes it was sold through an estate agent and the property had considerably gone up in value. On sale my part of the money was transfered through the solicitor to put down on a buy to let mortgage next door to my mother and father. Wish I'd found this page last year but spent most of it in hospital. My doctor said I shouldn't of signed anything I was in no fit state to sign while on morphine and various other pain killers coming out of hospital in pain etc. I was virtually blackmailed I call it saying except this or get £46600 knowing once I'd done that they knew they had me. I am a law abiding person but this makes me wonder why you try and better yourself and they just want to drag you down:-( Thank you for your time.

[Goldlady]

Holy hell this is so unjust.

 

I have just been through a BR helping a friend. There were various items that the OR queried ( in a three hour interview ) but when she stated that she was repaying loans to members of the family he accepted it. What I am thinking is that if the ex would confirm that she was repaying you for money you had 'lent' her during the time you lived together and also for the work you had done in the house that you would have a good defence. Assuming you are still in touch with her.

 

I think you have got the right to fight this - and I don't understand why the solicitor quoted you so much to help you. Are you likely to be eligible for legal aid? And if you don't mind me asking where are you based? Send me a PM if you don't want to say, but you really do need to fight this one.

[roystc]

I'm based in N Wales and was told legal aid isnt available for this type of thing. I get an insurance and incapacity but not sure what qualifies so have been just paying a normal solicitor to deal with the letters. I have a writen quote for the £13500 to represent me by a firm in Chester asked about house insurance covering it but they said no as it went back to 2001. The ex is fine and been very apologetic as this is gona affect my family as well it wasn't a bitter split just didn't work out. I would pay them monthly for it but they just petitioned for my bankruptcy they are ruthless.

[Goldlady]

I think there is a way out of this but need to give it some thought. I will be back:)

[roystc]

I thank you and I'm willing to pay for any information that anyone can give me to get these vultures off my back. The law is so wrong how can I come up with receipts from 2001 to 2004 they know this and thats why they have persued me. They wont speak to my financial arangement company and they have never heard nothing like it as they said if they get away with this they need to look how they do business. I have been in and out of work for 2-3 years with ill health so had my own financial problems without this being chucked at me. The financial company said even if I pay them they are taking money that could be paid to my creditors. Thanks for reading my problems sorry they arn't simpler:-/

[boavista1952]

Wow .... that's spooky, my bankruptcy was dealt with by the Official Receiver at Dee Hills Parks as well .... Gardner I think his name was, as I said it was a fair few years ago - I had a business in Ruthin and Nannerch .. those were the days!

 

Anyhow, that's not going to get you sorted is it .... I'm pleased that you have got Docman and Goldlady on your case .. the important thing to remember here is to act on their advice swiftly, don't let things slide any further ...

 

I'm sure that you can beat this, but you will need to sit down and sort the facts out clearly and chronologically so that you can draw and maximise upon the excellent advice you will get from other, more experienced, members of this group.

 

Boa..

Edited June 7, 2008 by boavista1952

[roystc]

It is crazy Boa I know and everyone I know says I shouldn't have to pay it but the fact they wont even take a payment and security in the property is crazy. And they would sooner I go bankrupt and they will probably end up with next to nothing because I have other creditors. I have no faith in a judge making the right decision they refused to have it put to one side when I asked. The fact I took it on is bad enough but to expect me to get £27500 in a lump sum is crazy.

[boavista1952]

Roystc, do I understand correctly that you are paying a portion of your income into a debt management company?

 

If so, you should in my opinion, stop that immediately!

 

Boa ...

[Goldlady]

Lovely part of the country - we have camped in Bala many times:p.

 

I am going to send a PM to another member who might be able to help here. I have been thinking about your situation and what happened with my friend and her family loans. You had every right to that money, it was not a gift and even though your name was not on the deeds there is case law to back up your position. It is all to do with trust law and once I have done some revision I will post my thoughts:D

[boavista1952]

I am fairly sure that they won't take security in the property as by doing so it will preclude them from making you bankrupt as any amount owed has to be unsecured.

 

Boa...

[boavista1952]

Lovely part of the country - we have camped in Bala many times.

 

Spent many a day at Lake Bala when I was a kid .... my god the water, it was so cold!

 

Boa..