Drakes hmcs appeal rejected

[saygemfinance]

Hi I have just had an appeal rejected by the hmcs for failure to provide driver info. I sent them an appeal stating that I sent this on numerous occassions.

 

Is there anything Ican do as I now have a bailiff knowcking on my door for a debt worth nearly £1000 which i dont have.

 

All help will be greatly appreciated

[Conniff]

So this has been to court and a judgement granted against you.

 

All you can do now is to request that you have time to pay unless you can think of a good reason to go back to court and appeal there.

[saygemfinance]

Thank you for replying. I want to go back to court as I have passed the information to them. If they reject i just need time to pay the fine thats all as drakes are not letting me

[lamma]

I take it you don't have any proof that you sent the information ?

annotated photocopy, recorded delivery..

[patdavies]

Hi I have just had an appeal rejected by the hmcs for failure to provide driver info. I sent them an appeal stating that I sent this on numerous occassions.

 

Failure to provide driver info in respect of, and response to, what exactly?

 

 

I want to go back to court as I have passed the information to them. If they reject i just need time to pay the fine thats all as drakes are not letting me

 

The Court will decide on a payment programme and Drakes will be instructed to follow it.

 

What is this for? Is it criminal or civil court?

[saygemfinance]

lamma i dont have any proof. I must be naive as i trusted the royal mail.

[saygemfinance]

hi patdavies thank you for replying.

 

it was for speeding and not sending the drivers info.

 

i contacted the courts regarding a payment plan and they said they cannot do anything about it. it is the criminal court.

[lamma]

Trusting the royal mail to deliver is a mistake - and also slightly irrelevant. the letter could get 'lost' at the other end. proof of delivery for 'evidence' is always best.

 

Pat's questions are very relevant. can you respond to them please.

[lamma]

so its for a S172 ? is that what you were convicted of ? (i.e NOT speeding)

 

more information makes it easier to respond - can you tell the story please with all the relevant facts.

[saygemfinance]

hi lamma i have no idea what an s172 is.

 

The scenario is that I was caught speeding and they asked form my information. I sent my details and left it at that.

 

I then get a court summons for not sending info. When i called up the lady on the phone said if im going to plead not guilty then I do not have to turn up to court and i should just send the paperwork off. I did that and they replied saying that the paperwork wasnt signed correctly. At this point i was aborad so did not receive in time. when I came back i had fines on my doorstep. I appealed for an out of time decision which was refused two days ago.

[lamma]

so you got convicted of speeding in your absence on the basis of unacceptable evidence (the unsigned NIP). I fail to see how you could logically be convicted of both. If it was failure to provide then its a S172.

What were you convicted of exactly ?

 

What Offense code(s) went on your licence ?

 

we have more story but still too few facts to help.

[saygemfinance]

hi lamma there is no code on my license yet at all. it was a s172 for failure to provide.

 

the actula fine letter states that is for fail to give info re drivers ide

[lamma]

did you sign the forms properly ?

 

we need the time line also. the more facts you give the better.

[saygemfinance]

i didnt sign forms properly first time around as i wasnt sure how to sign them. When they came back i was away so i couldnt sign those neither. By this time it went to court and I was fined.

 

This has been on going since Novemebr last year.

 

sent original documents off on November. Received notice of prosecution in January which I sent off not signed properly.

 

Came back in February and was fined in Februaruy. Been appealing since

[lamma]

couldn't figure out how to sign them ? ? ?

 

sounds like you tried the unsigned route - and outside scotland - and paid the price. is that an accurate assessment ?

[saygemfinance]

no that is not it i singed the first one and then i was told that i needed a commisioner of oaths to sign it. I had actually mis read the document. I then went to get it signed at my local court but it was too late by then.

[lamma]

there are ywo sets of signatures here to of concern

 

did you sign the NIP ? it sounds as though you didn't and were done for the S172 ?

is this correct ?

 

were you also done for speeding ?

 

statutory declarations do have to be signed by a commissioner for oaths - a local solicitor will do it for a smallish fee or you can go the court and get it done at no cost (apart from the travel).

 

sounds like you messed up the declaration. is that correct ?

[saygemfinance]

you are correct i did mess up the declaration. However i did sign the nip form.

[patdavies]

Right, this is a criminal conviction so statutory out of time declaration is irrelevant.

 

As I understand it

 

a) you completed the driver's details on the S.172 and posted it to the police. If so, there is a presumption of delivery by post that is laid out in the Interpretation Act.

 

b) you then got a summons for failing to supply. Normally, there would be a second charge of speeding on the summons (they like to cover all the bases:p). You responded with a plea of not guilty via post. You simply tick the box for not guilty, sign the form and send it to the court - you do not have to attend on the day listed in the summons.

 

At this point, the Court should have accepted your plea and set a new date for trial. This would have been notified in writing to you.

 

c) you failed to sign the paperwork that you sent the court to provide your not guilty plea - this shouldn't actually matter. the important thing is the plea and if there is any doubt, the Magistrates should enter a plea of not guilty.

 

d) the next thing that you know is on returning from abroad, you have notice of fines in the mail. Why? Did you miss the new court date? Was your plea of not guilty not accepted? How long were you abroad and did you notify the Court of potential non-availability before going?

 

What you should do is go back to the Magistrates' Court and ask for the judgement to be set aside (a set aside application, not an out of time application). A set aside voids the conviction and fine and sets you for a new hearing of the charge(s). You complete a form stating why you think the judgement should be set aside and it is then put in front of a Magistrates' Bench to decide. You do not need to have the signature witnessed by a Commissioner for Oaths.

 

In order to offer help and advice, we need to know exactly what has happened; with a timeline. It is impossible to advise from 'snippets'; there is a legal process to be gone through and that process is rigid.

Edited June 5, 2008 by patdavies
spelling !!

[saygemfinance]

Hi Pat Davies

 

Thank you fo rthe advice. The reason I missed the court date was that i was abroad but understood that my presence was not needed.

 

I will take all the paperwork out tonight and draw up a timeline which i will post tomorrow. I will also ask the magistrates for the judgement to be set aside as well.

 

Really appreciate your help

[tomtubby]

Pat Davies

 

Excellent response indeed. As our business deals exculsively with advising the public and indeed many advice agencies on all matters relating to bailiffs we did not see many of these such cases. In the past few months though approx 25% of all queries that we receive are because either Marston Group, Philips or Swift are enforcing an unpaid Magistrates Court Fine. These can be for unpaid tv licence, driving without insurance or tax, failing to provide info and even drunk & disorderly etc.

 

The contract for the collection of these fines was awarded to these 3 companies by HMCS approx 2 years ago but we are now finding that these companies are enforcing fines that are 5 and 6 years old !!!

 

The fees they can charge are STEEP. The original idea was that they can charge a large upfront admin fee/letter of up to £50, this would have ensured that most cases were dealt with by way of letter only. Sadly we are seeing many letters being sent by 2nd class mail and even some cases where the letter arrives the day AFTER the bailiff has visited. The visit charge is typically £175 so with the £50 admin fee most cases have bailiff fees of £225 just for the firstvisit. !!

 

One case yesterday was an old fine from 4 years ago of £30 with bailiff charges of £345 !!

 

These are a real problem as many times the fines were against an old address. Unlike a parking charge notices where the bailiff is only allowed to visit the address on the warrant, these bailiff are allowed to visit a new address and many times the debtor has no knowledge of treviosu letters or correspondence.

 

In such cases we are advised that the debtor needs to simply complete a Statutory Declaration stating that he was unaware of the action/not living at the address/did not receive documentation etc.

 

This can be sworn either at a firm of solicitors (approx fee of £5) or he can take the stat dec to the magistrates court but he will need to go before the Magistrates to swear it. (Most prefer the solicitor route !!)

 

By filing this, the action would appear to be cancelled and so too is the conviction/fine. The court can of course start the action again at the new address but the bailiff action is cancelled.

 

Many that we have seen ( in particular the ones from 5 years ago) have also had the driving licence endorsed and we were advised that the Statutory Declaration route would cancel this as well.

 

Finally, it must be remembered that the above 3 bailiff companies MUST enforce the Warrant of Distress within 180 days.

 

Any comments would be welcome.

 

S.

[saygemfinance]

Hi i just spoke to the courts and they have stated that i cannot have my case voided as i lost the original appeal.

 

Is this the case?

 

I also had the bailiff trying to physically knock my door down today and came with one other person?

[patdavies]

Hi i just spoke to the courts and they have stated that i cannot have my case voided as i lost the original appeal.

 

Is this the case?

 

 

What original appeal?

 

All we have had posted here is some details of a stat dec that was not properly signed. That was not an appeal in the eyes of the law.

 

Go to the court in person - do not speak to them on the phone - and ask for the judgement to be set aside on the grounds that you were out of the country at the time of the original judgement and had not been notified of the hearing date before you left. They should give you a form to complete that will have to be placed before a Magistrates' Bench to be considered. You may be asked to attend or provide written evidence of your assertion that you were out of the country.

 

If they refuse to do this due "your appeal having failed already", then you can appeal to a higher court (who will take a very dim view of the Magistrates' Court staff not helping you)

 

If you have bailiffs chasing the money for the fine, then I also suggest that you contact DVLA to ensure that your driving licence has been not been revoked for refusal to surrender it for penalty points to be applied. Points are mandatory for failure to provide.

[saygemfinance]

The original appeal was for the out of time decision. which i posted at the beginning. I will go to the courts today with proof of my passport which should show stamps.

 

i will contat DVLA on way to court