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    • One other point to note, the more I read, the more I study, the more proficient I feel I am becoming in this area. Make no mistake DBCL if you are reading this, when I win in court, if I have the grounds to make any claims against you, such as breach of GDPR, I shall be doing so.
    • Yep, I read that and thought about trying to find out what the consideration and grace period is at Riverside but not sure I can. I know they say "You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is"  but I doubt they would disclose it to the public, maybe I should have asked in my CPR 31.14 letter? Yes, I think I can get rid of 5 minutes. I am also going to include a point about BPA CoP: 13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place. I think that is Deception .... They giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other!
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    • the Town and Country [advertisments ] Regulations 2007 are not easy to understand. Most Council planing officials don't so it's good that you found one who knows. Although he may not have been right if the rogues have not been "controlling" in the car park for that long. The time only starts when the ANPR signs go up, not how long the area has been used as a car park.   Sadly I have checked Highview out and they have been there since at least 2014 . I have looked at the BPA Code of Practice version 8 which covers 2023 and that states Re Consideration and Grace Periods 13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN. It then goes on to explain a bit more further down 13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is. 13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________So you have  now only overstayed 5 minutes maximum since BPA quote a minimum of 10 minutes. And it may be that the Riverside does have a longer period perhaps because of the size of the car park? So it becomes even more incumbent on you to remember where the extra 5 minutes could be.  Were you travelling as a family with children or a disabled person where getting them in and out of the car would take longer. Was there difficulty finding a space, or having to queue to get out of the car park . Or anything else that could account for another 5 minutes  without having to claim the difference between the ANPR times and the actual times.
    • Regarding a driver, that HAS paid for parking but input an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number.   This is an easy mistake to make, especially if a driver has access to more than one vehicle. First of all, upon receiving an NTK/PCN it is important to check that the Notice fully complies with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 before deciding how to respond of course. The general advice is NOT to appeal to the Private Parking Company as, for example, you may identify yourself as driver and in certain circumstances that could harm your defence at a later stage. However, after following a recent thread on this subject, I have come to the conclusion that, in the case of inputting an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number, which is covered by “de minimis” it may actually HARM your defence at a later stage if you have not appealed to the PPC at the first appeal stage and explained that you DID pay for parking and CAN provide proof of parking, it was just that an incorrect VRN was input in error. Now, we all know that the BPA Code of Practice are guidelines from one bunch of charlatans for another bunch of charlatans to follow, but my thoughts are that there could be problems in court if a judge decides that a motorist has not followed these guidelines and has not made an appeal at the first appeal stage, therefore attempting to resolve the situation before it reaches court. From BPA Code of Practice: Section 17:  Keying Errors B) Major Keying Errors Examples of a major keying error could include: • Motorist entered their spouse’s car registration • Motorist entered something completely unrelated to their registration • Motorist made multiple keying errors (beyond one character being entered incorrectly) • Motorist has only entered a small part of their VRM, for example the first three digits In these instances we would expect that such errors are dealt with appropriately at the first appeal stage, especially if it can be proven that the motorist has paid for the parking event or that the motorist attempted to enter their VRM or were a legitimate user of the car park (eg a hospital patient or a patron of a restaurant). It is appreciated that in issuing a PCN in these instances, the operator will have incurred charges including but not limited to the DVLA fee and other processing costs therefore we believe that it is reasonable to seek to recover some of these costs by making a modest charge to the motorist of no more than £20 for a 14-day period from when the keying error was identified before reverting to the charge amount at the point of appeal. Now, we know that the "modest charge" is unenforceable in law, however, it would be up to the individual if they wanted to pay and make the problem go away or in fact if they wanted to contest the issue in court. If the motorist DOES appeal to the PPC explaining the error and the PPC rejects the appeal and the appeal fails, the motorist can use that in his favour at court.   Defence: "I entered the wrong VRN by mistake Judge, I explained this and I also submitted proof of payment for the relevant parking period in my appeal but the PPC wouldn't accept that"   If the motorist DOES NOT appeal to the PPC in the first instance the judge may well use that as a reason to dismiss the case in the claimant's favour because they may decide that they had the opportunity to resolve the matter at a much earlier stage in the proceedings. It is my humble opinion that a motorist, having paid and having proof of payment but entering the wrong VRN, should make an appeal at the first appeal stage in order to prevent problems at a later stage. In this instance, I think there is nothing to be gained by concealing the identity of the driver, especially if at a later stage, perhaps in court, it is said: “I (the driver) entered the wrong VRN.” Whether you agree or not, it is up to the individual to decide …. but worth thinking about. Any feedback, especially if you can prove to the contrary, gratefully received.
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BB v Cabot Appeal


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Hearing Result = Score Draw

 

Full appeal granted but in only very specific areas - more later.

 

Will need "Carey" case and lots more info on collection of only arrears

 

Beau

Please note: I am not a lawyer and as such any advice I give is purely from a laymans point of view;-)

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Congrats Beau

 

I really dont see how there getting away with claiming just the arrears, this really needs nipping in the bud

 

Hadituptohere

I'm far from an expert, but learning all the time!!!!!

 

If i've been at all helpful please click my star.

 

Hadituptohere OH V Capital One, **WON**

Hadituptohere V Cabot, (providian/Monument/Barclaycard cc) - ** claim struck out ** due to non complaince of CPR, Wasted Costs applied for, Default Cost Certificate issued by Court, Warrant of excecution and CC Baliffs instructed...lol 😎

Hadituptohere V Cabot, (morgan stanley dean witter/barclays cc) - account in dispute, LBA sent to barclays, awaiting responce, no responce.

Hadituptohere V RBS, default removal x 2, case dismissed, judge used Balance of Probabilities against hard Evidence.

Hadituptohere OH v Santander, Santander issue claim in court, settled out of court via Tomlin, less solicitors fees and interest.

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If there is a valid agreement, then, without a valid DN, the arrears can be claimed up until the account was terminated. i.e. IMHO as soon as the creditor demands 'sums not yet due' or stops sending statements or sends a letter indicating account closure

 

That is, of course, assuming that the assignment was lawful and absolute.

 

Also assuming there were no unclaimed unlawful charges included in the lawful arrears at the time of termination.

If you find my advice helpful - please click on my scales

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The small print - any advice I give is freely given on the understanding that I am a layman and am not legally qualified in anyway.

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Well done. Did the other side attend or were they trying to intimidate? As PT stated earlier, you can use Ladd v Marshal to aduce new evidennce, but you I believe it must be done by appliction.

 

You mention claiming arrears, are they just claiming arrears?

 

Hearing Result = Score Draw

 

Full appeal granted but in only very specific areas - more later.

 

Will need "Carey" case and lots more info on collection of only arrears

 

Beau

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Right then,

 

I thank you all for your kind words and support but....

 

I said earlier this is now very serious for me, as I really need to take heed of the words that DJ QC said to me in granting this appeal. If this goes wrong I may well end up with double the £8k + that this is already sat at.

 

I have to consider two points only from my SA to take forward into a appeal hearing as follows :

 

1) The question of the prescribed terms not appearing in the reply card which does not conform to s61. The judge asked Cabot Counsel for guidence in the case law to look for and Carey - HSBC was suggested, plus one other that I cannot remember Waksman possibly.

 

2) I have strongly put forward the case that Cabot are not just claiming the arrears but are in fact claiming the full balance as demanded only 10 days after the assignment from Barclays to Cabot. It is worth noting that the high powered barister for Cabot seemed a little muted on this point - it is my strong belief that they are weak in this argument. Of course they do have time to develop some answers now.

 

I need to possibly look into legal help as I feel this is now going to go beyond my capability and I will be out of my depth - it was very obvious that I was an LIP.

 

Judge said that I had raised some very technical arguments and in his opinion and experience these arguments would eventually be trodden down.

 

So if the site team are watching I will need guidance - my gut feeling is to go on but there are very strong reservations here.

 

It was nice to speak to someone who was prepared to listen to my reasons and arguments. It was also nice to see the high powered counsel for Cabot be shot down when he asked for surety of costs.

 

I think it was Rhia that asked about the experience - I would not say it was nice, as I was driving to the hearing I my legs felt like jelly but once I realised that the judge was prepared to listen that soon calmed me down and I got into the swing of it.

 

Beau

Please note: I am not a lawyer and as such any advice I give is purely from a laymans point of view;-)

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Right then,

 

I thank you all for your kind words and support but....

 

I said earlier this is now very serious for me, as I really need to take heed of the words that DJ QC said to me in granting this appeal. If this goes wrong I may well end up with double the £8k + that this is already sat at.

 

I have to consider two points only from my SA to take forward into a appeal hearing as follows :

 

1) The question of the prescribed terms not appearing in the reply card which does not conform to s61. The judge asked Cabot Counsel for guidence in the case law to look for and Carey - HSBC was suggested, plus one other that I cannot remember Waksman possibly.

 

2) I have strongly put forward the case that Cabot are not just claiming the arrears but are in fact claiming the full balance as demanded only 10 days after the assignment from Barclays to Cabot. It is worth noting that the high powered barister for Cabot seemed a little muted on this point - it is my strong belief that they are weak in this argument. Of course they do have time to develop some answers now.

 

I need to possibly look into legal help as I feel this is now going to go beyond my capability and I will be out of my depth - it was very obvious that I was an LIP.

 

Judge said that I had raised some very technical arguments and in his opinion and experience these arguments would eventually be trodden down.

 

So if the site team are watching I will need guidance - my gut feeling is to go on but there are very strong reservations here.

 

It was nice to speak to someone who was prepared to listen to my reasons and arguments. It was also nice to see the high powered counsel for Cabot be shot down when he asked for surety of costs.

 

I think it was Rhia that asked about the experience - I would not say it was nice, as I was driving to the hearing I my legs felt like jelly but once I realised that the judge was prepared to listen that soon calmed me down and I got into the swing of it.

 

Beau

 

I know how you must be feeling right now. Sometimes the other side can "spook" you out and make you feel as if you are running down a blind alley. The DJ hasn't helped by suggesting your "technical" arguments would be trodden down in time.

 

Remember, in your circumstances you have higher court decisions on your side which should be binding upon a lower court judge.

 

Appeals are tricky I'm sure and if you can find a pro-bono barrister then all well and good. However, it certainly is not beyond the realms of a well prepared LIP with lots of support. I'd be more than willing to attend court with you for some moral support (and the odd reminder here and there).

 

But it is ultimately up to you... :)

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I'd be more than willing to attend court with you for some moral support (and the odd reminder here and there).

 

Thats one hell of an offer ;)

I'm far from an expert, but learning all the time!!!!!

 

If i've been at all helpful please click my star.

 

Hadituptohere OH V Capital One, **WON**

Hadituptohere V Cabot, (providian/Monument/Barclaycard cc) - ** claim struck out ** due to non complaince of CPR, Wasted Costs applied for, Default Cost Certificate issued by Court, Warrant of excecution and CC Baliffs instructed...lol 😎

Hadituptohere V Cabot, (morgan stanley dean witter/barclays cc) - account in dispute, LBA sent to barclays, awaiting responce, no responce.

Hadituptohere V RBS, default removal x 2, case dismissed, judge used Balance of Probabilities against hard Evidence.

Hadituptohere OH v Santander, Santander issue claim in court, settled out of court via Tomlin, less solicitors fees and interest.

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Fully understand how you feel about the experience. I've been there and I know it can be very intimidating. I agree with VJ, Counsel attended to try to intimidate and frighten you with possible costs if you lose.

 

Take a couple of days to get over it and then decide what to do.

 

One point I'd pick up on is the Judge asked Counsel for otherside for guidance on case law. You will need to prepare to rubbish the Carey argument as it clearly has little bearing on enforcement by a creditor. I had the same argument thrown at me at my appeal, but they never succeeded.

 

I will help wherever I can. As I,ve said, give it a couple of days and then decide what you want to do.

R

 

Right then,

 

I thank you all for your kind words and support but....

 

I said earlier this is now very serious for me, as I really need to take heed of the words that DJ QC said to me in granting this appeal. If this goes wrong I may well end up with double the £8k + that this is already sat at.

 

I have to consider two points only from my SA to take forward into a appeal hearing as follows :

 

1) The question of the prescribed terms not appearing in the reply card which does not conform to s61. The judge asked Cabot Counsel for guidence in the case law to look for and Carey - HSBC was suggested, plus one other that I cannot remember Waksman possibly.

 

2) I have strongly put forward the case that Cabot are not just claiming the arrears but are in fact claiming the full balance as demanded only 10 days after the assignment from Barclays to Cabot. It is worth noting that the high powered barister for Cabot seemed a little muted on this point - it is my strong belief that they are weak in this argument. Of course they do have time to develop some answers now.

 

I need to possibly look into legal help as I feel this is now going to go beyond my capability and I will be out of my depth - it was very obvious that I was an LIP.

 

Judge said that I had raised some very technical arguments and in his opinion and experience these arguments would eventually be trodden down.

 

So if the site team are watching I will need guidance - my gut feeling is to go on but there are very strong reservations here.

 

It was nice to speak to someone who was prepared to listen to my reasons and arguments. It was also nice to see the high powered counsel for Cabot be shot down when he asked for surety of costs.

 

I think it was Rhia that asked about the experience - I would not say it was nice, as I was driving to the hearing I my legs felt like jelly but once I realised that the judge was prepared to listen that soon calmed me down and I got into the swing of it.

 

Beau

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Thanks again for all your offers of help. I am taking Robin's advice and giving it some thought for a couple of days.

 

VJ - this is a most generous offer perhaps you could PM me and see if there is any mileage in it (excuse the pun). as Hadituptohere has commented one hell of an offer indeed.

 

Robin - I have printed the Carey case already and when I have time I will have proper read and try to understand a little more with that case.

 

Cymruambyth - your case mirrors this, in as much as has you have the same reply card etc so I am sure you will be watching with interest and likewise Sirfussalot I believe - I will PM Shakespeare if I decide to go ahead, still got some thinking to do.

 

One thing that is looking to be sticking point is Case Law regarding collection of arrears - I know that gazhodge has won a case against Cabot on this only last month but that is in County Court - so helpfull but not binding. Any assistance in this area would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks again to all of you:)

 

Beau

Please note: I am not a lawyer and as such any advice I give is purely from a laymans point of view;-)

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Just a quick thing to remember, going to court to collect arrears still amounts to enforcement through courts and as such still need a properly executed agreement.

R

 

Thanks again for all your offers of help. I am taking Robin's advice and giving it some thought for a couple of days.

 

VJ - this is a most generous offer perhaps you could PM me and see if there is any mileage in it (excuse the pun). as Hadituptohere has commented one hell of an offer indeed.

 

Robin - I have printed the Carey case already and when I have time I will have proper read and try to understand a little more with that case.

 

Cymruambyth - your case mirrors this, in as much as has you have the same reply card etc so I am sure you will be watching with interest and likewise Sirfussalot I believe - I will PM Shakespeare if I decide to go ahead, still got some thinking to do.

 

One thing that is looking to be sticking point is Case Law regarding collection of arrears - I know that gazhodge has won a case against Cabot on this only last month but that is in County Court - so helpfull but not binding. Any assistance in this area would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks again to all of you:)

 

Beau

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Beau

 

Bearing in mind that Cabot are - amongst other things - demanding arrears without a DN, and also that the agreement has not been terminated, the following is on the Consumer Direct website:

 

Statements

You can request a statement at any time, showing the amounts owing under the agreement. For credit cards and other running-account credit, the lender must also send you regular statements – usually monthly. From 1 October 2008 you will be entitled to an annual statement on all credit agreements. This must contain certain minimum information – Click link for information. http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/cca/Postcontractinfo

Default notices

If the lender wants to enforce the agreement against you – for example because you have broken the terms of the agreement – he must send you a default notice. From 1 October 2008 this must include an OFT information sheet ["]http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/cca/CCA2006/information/]] highlighting your key rights and responsibilities and where to go for help or advice.

Arrears notices

If you fall behind with payments by more than a certain amount, the lender will be required to send you an arrears notice from 1 October 2008. This must include an OFT information sheet ["]http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/cca/CCA2006/information/]. A notice will also be required if the lender imposes a default sum – for example, because you are late with a payment.

If information is not provided

If the lender fails to provide information when he is required to under the law, he is not entitled to enforce the agreement, or to charge interest or default sums, until the correct notice has been sent. If in doubt, speak to a Consumer Direct adviser.

 

Alan

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Hi Beau

 

I came across this whilst looking for some info for my wife and whilst it dosent provide me the info im looking for it certainly made interesting reading.

 

I would just like to pass on my best wishes to you in your fight and praise you for your stubornnes in refusing to go away and continuing to tackle the problem, so often the general joe bloggs is shot down by these legal jargon bampots just in the same way bailiffs act, by making it sound like they know and they are right in exactly what they say.

 

Keep fighting and believing and you will get there i have no doubt!!!

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  • 5 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Morning,

 

What happened with this case? Iv'e read the whole thread expecting there to be a happy outcome and it just stops.

 

Would like to know as about to start a case for my mate re Cabots

 

You can view the thread here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?285138-My-Mate-vs-MBNA-AIC&p=3286699&highlight=#post3286699

 

Thanks

Scrapper Coco 8-)

"I just want to make people silky-smooth!"

 

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Advice & opinions given by Scrapper are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.

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