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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
      After a few heated exchanges with ASG (pardon the pun) I decided to pull the plug and cancel our agreement.
       
      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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HFO claimform - old Morgan Stanley Card Debt **WON**


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Have you thought about phoning the Citizens Advice Bureau at the Royal Courts of Justice and asking if they will do it for you.

 

As far as the transcript is concerned - you need to write to the CA and ask them to extend time - you just tell them that you haven't got the documents yet

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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The court is unwilling to insert these documents for me as I have to do this personally, this is impossible as I live 200 miles away from the appeal court and will be unable to get time off work.

 

This gives me the only option but to give up on my appeal

 

Hey, don't get disheartened Broken Arrow by some white collar Job Worths!! Sometimes it's the minutia, such as this, which can be the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.

 

You have climbed a mountain...don't let a little mole hill trip you up!! ;)

 

Why not investigate the options that IGNM has suggested?

 

Alternatively, the site team may be able to suggest a trustworthy Cagger who lives near by who may be willing and able to assist.

 

Best of luck with this and the the charging order hearing. :-)

 

PS I'm sure Esther Rantzen used to give out "awards" to such people on her show That's Life!!

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Since HFO Services - or rather their principal HFO Capital Ltd - are a debt purchase company who deal in assigned debts, you should put them to proof in court of the assignment. See Law of Property Act 1925 s 136, and Chitty's text on contract law concerning assignment, both legal and equitable.

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Since HFO Services - or rather their principal HFO Capital Ltd - are a debt purchase company who deal in assigned debts, you should put them to proof in court of the assignment. See Law of Property Act 1925 s 136, and Chitty's text on contract law concerning assignment, both legal and equitable.

there is also case law which states you have an entitlement to sight of the assignment.

 

Sadly, Chitty on Contract is very expensive and most of our members will not have access to it,

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Can you tell me what that case law is?

 

I know Chitty's expensive, but your local university library might have a copy.

 

Mike

I think the two cases you need to look at are Harrison v Burke and also Van Lynn v Pelias.

It has been held that failure of a notice of assignment to be accurate because the date of the assignment was wrongly stated invalidates the notice and, therefore, the legal right to the debt cannot be assigned effectually at law within the meaning of s 136(1) LPA, 1925. [W F Harrison & Co Ltd v Burke and another [1956] 2 All ER 169].

HFO may mislead in trying to argue Van Lynn, which is the case that allows access to the Deed of Assignment. The relevant words of Denning MR extracted from the case are as follows

“The relevant section is s 136(1) of the Law of Property Act, 1925, which provides:

"Any absolute assignment by writing under the hand of the assignor ... of any debt or other legal thing in action, of which express notice in writing has been given to the debtor ... is effectual in law ... to pass and transfer from the date of such notice--(a) the legal right to such debt or thing in action; (b) all legal and other remedies for the same; and © the power to give a good discharge for the same without the concurrence of the assignor: ... "

What is a sufficient notice of assignment? There are only two or three cases on the subject. There is Stanley v English Fibres Industries, Ltd which was accepted and applied by this court in W F Harrison & Co Ltd v Burke. Those cases show that, if a notice of assignment purports to identify the assignment by giving the date of the assignment--and that date is a wrong date--then the notice is bad. The short ground of those decisions was that the notice with a wrong date was a notice of a non-existing document. Assuming those cases to be correct, they leave open the question whether it is necessary to give the date of the assignment. Test it this way: Suppose the mistaken sentence were omitted in this letter so that it ran: "We have been instructed by our above named clients to apply to you for the payment of a sum of £5,296 19 5 outstanding to them following the assignment of the debt to them by the National Provincial Bank Limited." Would that be a good notice, even though it gives no date for the assignment? I think it would. I think the correct interpretation of this statute was given by Atkin J in Denney, Gasquet, and Metcalfe v Conklin. It is quite plain from his judgment that no formal requirements are required for a notice of assignment. It is sufficient if it brings ([1913] 3 KB at p 180):

"to the notice of the debtor with reasonable certainty the fact that the deed does assign the debt due from the debtor so as to bind the debt in his hands and prevent him from paying the debt to the original creditor."

It seems to me to be unnecessary that it should give the date of the assignment so long as it makes it plain that there has in fact been an assignment so that the debtor knows to whom he has to pay the debt in the future. After receiving the notice, the debtor will be entitled, of course, to require a sight of the assignment so as to be satisfied that it is valid, and that the assignee can give him a good discharge. But the notice itself is good, even though it gives no date.

Van Lynn Developments Ltd v. Pelias Construction Co Ltd [1968] 3 All ER 824

You should read both cases in detail and see if the test set out by Atkin J in the Denny case applies. Was there ‘reasonable certainty’ that the assignment took place?

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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A notice of assignment need not be in any particular form.If it states no date (and probably if it states no amount) then it will be a good notice if it sufficiently describes the debt. But if it specifies the date, then it must be strictly accurate. (I think that's either in Chitty or in Treitel).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well they got their final charging order.

 

They have now sent a letter threatening their next action which will be attachment of earnings or order to sell my property.

 

Debt @ 6k and interest @12%

 

Any ideas were to go.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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  • 2 months later...

The court of appeal have dismissed my appeal application as I could not supply all the documents they requested for my bundle.

 

I now have a query going back to the original hearing last year.

HFO said in the WS and and at the hearing that they had applied to ammend the POC, whether they did or not I do not know.

 

Having been on HMCS website it clearly states that once the claim has been issued the POC can not be changed without re-serving the claim, this was never done. would this warrant me applying for a set aside on the original order.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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From HMCS website-

Once the claim has been issued the court cannot change any of the details submitted without an application and request to re-serve the claim. You must complete an application notice (N244) detailing the changes you would like to make and send this to the court along with an N1 completed with the correct claim details. The court will then amend the details, re-seal the claim form and return it to you to re-serve on the defendant. You must keep a copy of the sealed N1. It is then your responsibility to re-serve the claim form. You must then send the court a completed certificate of service (N215) along with the copy of the N1 so the court knows the date when the defendant’s response is due. Once the claim has been issued the court cannot change any of the details submitted without an application and request to re-serve the claim. You must complete an application notice (N244) detailing the changes you would like to make and send this to the court along with an N1 completed with the correct claim details. The court will then amend the details, re-seal the claim form and return it to you to re-serve on the defendant. You must keep a copy of the sealed N1. It is then your responsibility to re-serve the claim form. You must then send the court a completed certificate of service (N215) along with the copy of the N1 so the court knows the date when the defendant’s response is due.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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Glory I've no idea BA. You need a procedural expert but I am wondering if this is grounds for a set aside as I now if you amend a POC you have to get court's permission and the defendant too.

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BA, many of us have a supposed assignment from HFO Capital that transfers all debts bought in the Caymans directly to HFO Services (it's an ongoing thing, 'inchoate', for all future purchases). So how come they say HFO Capital is the only legal claimant when they say - in other people's witness statements - that they assign it all to HFO Services? I think it's time to pull apart their systems.

 

Did you ever ask for a copy of the sale agreement relating particularly to YOUR alleged debt? They do exist according to HFO - I have one, even though their witness statement also relied on the 'ongoing' arrangement.

 

New evidence of fibs in witness statements may be another way to go.

 

Donkey

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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I agree with DonkeyB re getting a copy of the assignment or sales agreement. I would do this in all cases as it can throw up some unexpected information to strengthen your case.

 

I am sure with this Cayman Islands connection there is some dubious practice you can shed daylight on which will help you.

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If I can go for a set aside I will try and get a copy of the deed of assignment.

 

I will phone the court on Monday to find out if they ever did re apply to change the POC, if they did not then they have been untruthful and if they did apply which I doubt, procedure was not followed.

 

2 questions can Capital legally be the claimant in the UK.

and if not do they have to assign to Services.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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Now not an expert on this but I believe as long as they have a UK office for service of docs then it is quite legit. The dodgy aspect is are they using Cayman Islands to avoid tax? The answer will probably be highly likely.

 

I think the problem arises when anyone tries to take them to court and to claim back their charges etc. Last time I checked there were a number of ccjs against HFO for non payment of judgements. If you can find out if this is still the case you can refer them to the OFT for fitness to hold a consumer cedit licence. They need stopping but you need to stop them on your own case first.

 

Apart from the legal avenue you could ask HM Customs and Excise to investigate. ;)

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I have phoned the courts this morning and it looks like they did not apply to amend in writing before the hearing as stated in their WS.

 

What happened at the hearing the Judge allowed them there and then to substitute services for capital as the claimant.

 

This goes against what I have read on the HMCS website as is my previous post or can the Judge just do what he wants.

 

and if they did not apply in writing then they did tell an untruth.

Edited by broken arrow

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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I do not know what my chances are but I am going to try and set aside on the grounds that court proceedings did not follow court rules.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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Is it not worth trying to gather a bit more evidence first BA? I'm thinking specifically some further digging into who the account was really sold to...

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Is it not worth trying to gather a bit more evidence first BA? I'm thinking specifically some further digging into who the account was really sold to...

 

As there is no proceedings at the moment I would have to do SAR to get copy of sales agreement and deed of assignment, I would guess even then they would not let me see the deed of assignment unless I made an order through court.

 

Looking at other statements on the POC, it said that I had received notice of assignment from Morgan Stanley when I had not, another untruth, the date on the NOA was post the claim application and as we know it was not from Morgan Stanley it was from SW19.

 

On this NOA it states that HFO services are servicing the account on behalf of HFO capital.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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In your appeal, what were the documents you were unable to supply?

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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In your appeal, what were the documents you were unable to supply?

 

A copy of a previous order and transcript from my first appeal, the main problem was the cost of the transcript and I had to go to London, which for me is 250 miles away to add these docs to my bundle.

 

For me there was enough evidence or lack of from them anyhow.

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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Amendments to statements of case

17.1

 

1)A party may amend his statement of case at any time before it has been served on any other party.

 

2)If his statement of case has been served, a party may amend it only-

a) with the written consent of all the other parties;

b)or with the permission of the court.

 

3)If a statement of case has been served, an application to amend it by removing, adding or substituting a party must be made in accordance with rule 19.4.Part 22 requires amendments to a statement

 

 

Procedure for adding and substituting parties

 

19.4

1)The court’s permission is required to remove, add or substitute a party, unless the claim form has not been served.

 

2)An application for permission under paragraph (1) may be made by an existing party; or

a person who wishes to become a party.

 

3)An application for an order under rule 19.2(4) (substitution of a new party where existing party’s interest or liability has passed)

may be made without notice; and

must be supported by evidence.

 

4)Nobody may be added or substituted as a claimant unless he has given his consent in writing; and that consent has been filed with the court.

 

4a)The Commissioners for HM Revenue and Customs may be added as a party to proceedings only if they consent in writing

 

5)An order for the removal, addition or substitution of a party must be served on all parties to the proceedings; and

any other person affected by the order.

 

6) When the court makes an order for the removal, addition or substitution of a party, it may give consequential directions about

a)filing and serving the claim form on any new defendant

serving relevant documents on the new party; and

c)the management of the proceedings

Edited by broken arrow

US President Barack Obama referred to Ugland House as the biggest building in the world or the biggest tax SCA* in the world.

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BA, some clarification please! Who got the judgment? Was it HFO Capital or HFO Services?

 

If it was Capital, as you are aware I think we now have excellent grounds for appeal with fresh evidence. We now have proof that ALL accounts acquired by HFOC are assigned to HFO Services, so there is no way HFOC could bring this claim.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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  • dx100uk changed the title to HFO claimform - old Morgan Stanley Card Debt **WON**
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