Statutory Demand from Vertex - help please

[porsha]

Hello, I'm new here and I hope you might be able to help me. I have today been served with a Statutory Demand for £1207.24 from Vertex Limited (this was delivered to me by hand). The original debt was with the HSBC bank loan. The original outstanding balance to HSBC was £1085.43. I've had a read through a few threads and I'm struggling with some of the terminology and wording of things. I just need advice as to how to handle this as obviously, I don't want making bankcrupt. Shall I just write to them and make a reasonable offer of payments by installments? I can't afford to pay the whole debt upfront and doubt I have any grounds to have the debt set aside as I did default on the payments and have burried my head in the sand since

[rory32]

Ho porsha and welcome to CAG. I have moved your post to a thread of its own as it will get lost in the thread you posted on.

The original debt was with the HSBC bank loan.

When was the loan taken out and are there any charges on the account e.g. late payment fees? Is there any PPI on the loan? Are you a home owner and have you been making payments towards the loan?

[porsha]

Hi thank you for your response. I cannot remember when I took out the loan, according to the SD, I was served a default notice on the 22nd November 2006. Yes I am a houseowner, jointly with my husband. No I haven't been making any payments. What is a PPI?

 

Thank you for your help

[babybear39]

PPI = payment protection insurance

[42man]

Also can you tell us when you last made a payment towards this debt ? Is there the name of a court on the documents ?..... At this stage it might be worth sending off for a copy of your Consumer Credit Agreement....as without this they cannot enforce a debt legally....

 

Do Vertex own the debt ? or are Vertex collecting on HSBC's behalf ?

 

Let us know as we can assist...

[nevos]

Just subscribing: We are having a fight with Vertex as some of you will know.

 

We sent the CCA request in response to the Statutory demand last November, Vertex did not respond, they did produce a photocopy of an HSBC loan agreement a day before the bankruptcy hearing. By which time they added £1,800 in solicitors fees and £6,000 in interest from the date of the original default. At the hearing the judge gave us 6 weeks to file our argument and Vertex to reply by end of May.

 

Not wanting to waffle on about our own case just, would like to let you know Porsha and others that, these guys just add as many costs on as possible to give weight to their claim. They are in it for the fast buck.

 

It will help the helpers if you could give more details

 

Forgot to mention: They refused any offer saying " It is with our solicitors now etc bla bla"

[porsha]

Thank you for your responses. I am thinking that I last paid anything to HSBC sometime late 2006. I don't have PPI. According to the paperwork that came yesterday it says that the original creditor (HSBC) transferred its chattel in the outstanding amount to the current creditor, Vertex Limited. So am I right in thinking Vertex have now bought the debt? The court named in the paperwork is Sheffield County Court.

 

Nevos - I think I have read a thread about your current plight with Vertex and now I am really worried, that's why I am wondering if I should try and make an offer of payment??? The only problem is, I cannot pay the whole outstanding amount and I'm guessing that even if I come to some monthly arrangement with them, they will start to add rediculous amounts of interest so that I'll never be able to pay the debt off?

[porsha]

Must have missed your last sentence Nevos - Guess there is no point making an offer of payment then??

[42man]

OK Porsha, you need at this stage to send a request for your Consumer Creidt Agreement to Vertex..... it's letter 'N' from here.. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html send it by RECORDED / GUARANTEED delivery, make sure you don't hand sign it, they have to comply with your request within 12+2 working days or they will be in default of your request, while they haven't provided this a debt is unenforceable by law....

 

If you need to know why read this for reassurance.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/133653-consumer-credit-agreements-letter.html?highlight=gareth

[porsha]

Thank you for that. Why do I not sign the letter? Do I need to send a fee?

 

One question I do have and this relates to an entirely different problem but could also apply in this case also is what happens if the creditor does eventually provide the copy but months after the required 12+2 working days? Is the debt still then enforceable?

 

And since I only have 18/21 days to reply to the SD what do I do in respect of that whilst waiting for the CCA?

 

What I am worried about more than anything is that Vertex will continue to add loads of extra charges onto this existing debt whilst all of this is sorted out.

 

If they provide the CCA then where do I stand?

 

Thank you so much for your help, I'm feeling very frightened by all this

[porsha]

Just looked at the letter and realise I have to send £1, so that's one question answered!

[42man]

Apologies Portia...send a £1 postal order....and the reason you must not hand sign is beacuse it has been alleged that some DCA's will 'lift' your signature and apply it to a credit agreement !!!

[42man]

Also have a read here...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/112326-debt-collection-agencies-statutory.html

[42man]

Also here...

 

Legal Issues Explained - Statutory Demand

[42man]

If it was me in your position I would also send a SAR request to HSBC which you can find here...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

 

This will cost you £10 (again send this by recorded delivery)...

 

You need to write in the letter requests for any default notices too, also this should bring back statements to see if there are any excessive penalty charges that have been added to the account, they have to provide this within 40 days....

 

You need to fill out forms Forms 6.4 (application) and 6.5 (affidavit) within 18 days on the date of the statutory demand.

[42man]

you can find form 6.4 here - http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/pdfs/forms/6-4.doc

 

And an affadavit looks like this...this you will need to get sworn at a solicitors (usually costs £5)...

 

AFFIDAVIT

I (name) of (address), (occupation)

MAKE OATH and say as follows:

____________________________________

Signature

SWORN AT (address)

this day of year

before me,

____________________________________

(A Solicitor or Commissioner for Oaths)

[42man]

You need to send the CCA request and the SAR request today....what is the date on the stat demand ??

[nevos]

Hi: Man42, when we went to the court the first time: Vertex solicitor said " It has nothing to do with HSBC any longer" also for example anything over £850 you can be made bankrupt. I'm not 100% sure but we went of the HSBC tack and put Vertex to strict proof of a) The agreement b) The default notice was served correctly etc which porsha may have picked up on in our thread.

 

In my opinion: This is were I get confused, it appears it is OK for them to quote HSBC and add interest from the default notice (usually from before they bought the debt) plus, solicitors costs etc but, they use the argument it has nothing to do with HSBC any longer?

 

On another point: They have a debt collection company, who in our case tried to collect from us, we checked them at companies house and it is a £2 company with no trading history though, we checked again they do have a consumer credit license, it strikes me looking at Vertex accounts they are looking for a fast buck and not interested in negotiation. I will post their accounts for anyone who is interested.

 

Porsha: As man42 says , put them to strict proof for a copy of your agreement, this must not be a photocopy of a single page and should contain terms & conditions. As mentioned, do not send them any signed letters.

 

I also think this reflects badly on HSBC, we have issued a claim against them as clearly HSBC kept on lending in an irresponsible way, this has been stayed as a bank charges claim so, we will wait for the next round of court appearance set for June with Vertex though, they have to produce evidence by end of May..

 

Will post again later and hope it helps you and others.

 

If you keep people informed here you will get a lot of help.

 

We will see more and more SD's being used so folks let's try to sharpen up on this topic,please.

Edited May 9, 2008 by nevos

[porsha]

Hi, Thank you all for your replies. I'm feeling rather nervous about all of this. I just wish I had the money to settle all this tbh as the thought of fighting in court fills me with fear and dread

 

As a summery then, could someone advise what I must do please? Firstly, I must send a CCA request to Vertex? and secondly, I have to apply to court to have the SD put aside? This involoves filling in the above form and filling in an affadavit??

 

What happens if they don't provide te CCA within the specified number of days?

[rory32]

the thought of fighting in court fills me with fear and dread

It's highly unlikely you will be fighting in court. The other side are extremely unlikely to turn up and all that you have to show is that a dispute exists over the balance/enforceablilty of the account for it to be set aside.

Firstly, I must send a CCA request to Vertex?

Yes. You also need to send a SAR to HSBC to identify if there are any penalty charges on the account.

I have to apply to court to have the SD put aside? This involoves filling in the above form and filling in an affadavit??

Yes, but you have 18 days to do this from service of the SD. So you have until the 26th to file this at your local court.

[porsha]

Thank you for your help, I shall get on with doing all this today. I will let you know how it all goes. Thank you again

 

 

Could somebody please just let me know what the position is if the debtor doesn't provide the CCA within the specified time please? Is the debt still enforceable?

[42man]

No.....the debt is unenforceable by law.....

 

If you want proof of this then read this....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/133653-consumer-credit-agreements-letter.html?highlight=gareth

 

This is the relevant piece of the Consumer Credit Act...

 

SCHEDULE

SECTIONS OF THE ACT IN RESPECT OF WHICH A PERIOD OF 12 WORKING DAYS IS PRESCRIBED RELATING TO DUTIES IN

RELATION TO REGULATED AGREEMENTS

Regulation 2

Section of the

Act

Duty

(1) (2)

77(1) Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement.

78(1) Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

79(1) Duty to give information to hirer under consumer hire agreement.

and section 78 for running credit

 

 

78.

Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

— (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F1 £1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a)

the state of the account, and

 

(b)

the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

 

©

the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

 

(2) If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)©, he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

 

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to—

(a)

an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

 

(b)

a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

 

(4) Where running-account credit is provided under a regulated agreement, the creditor shall give the debtor statements in the prescribed form, and with the prescribed contents—

(a)

showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, the state of the account at regular intervals of not more than twelve months, and

 

(b)

where the agreement provides, in relation to specified periods, for the making of payments by the debtor, or the charging against him of interest or any other sum, showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer the state of the account at the end of each of those periods during which there is any movement in the account.

 

 

(5) A statement under subsection (4) shall be given within the prescribed period after the end of the period to which the statement relates.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)

he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b)

if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

(7) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, and subsections (4) and (5) do not apply to a small agreement

[babybear39]

I'm a bit confused as to what happens if they supply after all the deadlines What do they have to do (if anything) to enforce the agreement. I've read loads of threads and opinion differs on this. Some say the agreement has to be enforced in court, others say not...

[nevos]

Must have missed your last sentence Nevos - Guess there is no point making an offer of payment then??

Hi, you have time even if you don't try to set aside the SD, we did not try to set the SD aside. They did refuse an offer which was the same as we had been paying HSBC for 2 years. Your debt is much less, these are the costs for them to file a petition:

 

 

How much will it cost to make someone bankrupt?

• Petition deposit of £415 towards the costs of administration of the bankruptcy - this is a one-off payment towards the costs of the bankruptcy, and if the bankruptcy has enough assets, the petition deposit will be refunded to you
  
• Court fee of £190.
  
• Any costs for instructing a solicitor.
  

You can see how the costs start to mount up, also they will be adding interest. Vertex solicitors have given us a cost so far of over £2000-

 

As man42 points out: The whole thing rests on the Consumer Credit Agreement, if they do not or can not supply you a true copy of it then, they can not enforce the debt. To give you an idea: Vertex produced a photocopied loan agreement but, only one sheet with no terms and conditions, one day before the bankruptcy hearing.

 

While the agreement is really important to you and your defense the fact that they have breached the act and even committed a criminal offense is a bit of a toothless tiger. They will dream up some excuse or produce a photo copy etc.

 

Don't be frightened to go to court, it is quite usually informal and you simply sit around the table etc..your not a criminal.

 

Generally, the courts won't charge you to submit a witness statement.

 

In my opinion: I think the whole process is wrong and very unjust to say the least. You can be made bankrupt for anything over £850-

 

 

Edited May 13, 2008 by nevos

[porsha]

Ok, so I have sent the CCA request to Vertex. The S.A.R request is going off to the HSBC today. The form 6.4 is a little complicated, I am unsure how to fill in and what do I write in the affadavit? Then this must be sent to the court, yes? and is there a fee for this?

 

Really appreciate all your help