RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

[stevieb52]

No probs vselym, thanks for looking into it for me anyway!

Steve

[vselym]

stevieb52

 

is this action because your relatives are not paying under the ccj ?

[stevieb52]

My relatives contested the terms of the CCJ ubder the advice of the CAB as the judgement was made without them knowing about it and as a result the judgement was unaffordable.

 

They went to a reconsideration hearing where my relatives agreed a deal with a solicitor from IW before the hearing, this "deal" included putting a charge on their house as well as agreeing a more manageable monthly figure.

 

The judge agreed to these terms, and said he would make IW pay the costs as "they could afford it"!

 

Anyway, nothing happened for a while and then my relatives got a letter from the court stating that payment was due in full! All very confusing.

 

So in answer to your question, no I don't believe payments are being made, I can check though.

 

Thanks

Steve

[stevieb52]

Hi can anyone help me please, I'm not sure about the points below and need to do something asap. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

Also can anyone help in terms of a defence, I have seen the one posted in Mariners thread here which looks good although in fairness this point isnt relevant as I'm certain a default notice was sent:

 

"It is neither admitted or denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant."

 

And does it matter that I havent yet sent in a CPR Part 18 Request?

 

Thanks again

Steve

[vselym]

stevieb52

 

Have a look here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html

 

I think if ive understood this correctly you need to prioritise

 

Firstly - Acknowledgement of Service (this is from post number 4)

 

1. Call the court, and find out the date acknowledgement of service and defence are due

 

2. Make sure you acknowledge service... you can do at the MCOL site (Money claim online). I would suggest selecting that you will defend the entire claim, and not submitting a defence / counter claim yet.

Secondly - Check that the original CCA request was signed for and that the payment was encashed (post number 4 again)

 

3. Check that the credit request letter was received and signed for; if not send it special delivery.

Thirdly - Send the request for information under the CPR from post number 3

 

 

As far as i can see this is the key initial actions you need to take, the defence aspect comes later when you actually know what it is you need to defend

 

hope this is of more use

[nicklea]

Hi,

 

This is all rather confusing. Can I just confirm what has happened?

 

1) The creditor obtained a CCJ by default and the debtor did not acknowledge service.

2) The debtor attended a reconsideration hearing that resulted in a charging order on the house and an agreed monthly payment

3) The court order did not reflect what the judge actually said at the hearing

4) No payments have been made by the debtor

 

It would be very useful to know what the court order actually said

 

Also, you haven't said what the actual Particulars of Claim say. Before you got the Notice of Allocation you would have had a form that gave details of the claim. It would have said something like "The Claimant claims £xxx

following a judgement made in ....."

 

you would have received this form and you would have responded to it, otherwise the creditor would have got another default judgement. The fact that you've got a Notice of Allocation means that you have responded to the claim form. If you no longer have it I suggest that you phone the court as a matter of urgency and tell them you've mislaid the Claim Form and would like a copy of it.

 

Both the court order and claim form are very important in enabling people to help you with a defence.

[stevieb52]

Thanks very much vselym, I'll take a look and let you know how I get on.

Steve

 

stevieb52

 

Have a look here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html

 

I think if ive understood this correctly you need to prioritise

 

Firstly - Acknowledgement of Service (this is from post number 4)

 

 

Secondly - Check that the original CCA request was signed for and that the payment was encashed (post number 4 again)

 

 

Thirdly - Send the request for information under the CPR from post number 3

 

 

As far as i can see this is the key initial actions you need to take, the defence aspect comes later when you actually know what it is you need to defend

 

hope this is of more use

[stevieb52]

Hi nicklea, thats good advice and yes points 1-4 are correct. I'll follow your advice and add the info once I get it.

Thanks very much

Steve

 

Hi,

 

This is all rather confusing. Can I just confirm what has happened?

 

1) The creditor obtained a CCJ by default and the debtor did not acknowledge service.

2) The debtor attended a reconsideration hearing that resulted in a charging order on the house and an agreed monthly payment

3) The court order did not reflect what the judge actually said at the hearing

4) No payments have been made by the debtor

 

It would be very useful to know what the court order actually said

 

Also, you haven't said what the actual Particulars of Claim say. Before you got the Notice of Allocation you would have had a form that gave details of the claim. It would have said something like "The Claimant claims £xxx

following a judgement made in ....."

 

you would have received this form and you would have responded to it, otherwise the creditor would have got another default judgement. The fact that you've got a Notice of Allocation means that you have responded to the claim form. If you no longer have it I suggest that you phone the court as a matter of urgency and tell them you've mislaid the Claim Form and would like a copy of it.

 

Both the court order and claim form are very important in enabling people to help you with a defence.

[stevieb52]

Hi vselym

 

Firstly - Acknowledgement of Service (this is from post number 4)

 

I presume my family members must have acknowledged this already otherwise as Nicklea mentions they would have taken out another default?

 

Secondly - Check that the original CCA request was signed for and that the payment was encashed (post number 4 again)

 

I have a copy of a letter acknowledging reciept of the CCA request and which includes their justifications as to why it doesn't apply.

 

Thirdly - Send the request for information under the CPR from post number 3

 

I have sent the CPR Part 18 Request and received the following response...

 

"We acknowledge receipt of you Part 18 request which was made on the X May.

 

We are taking the claimants instructions regarding your request, however we consider the request to be premature in mind the court has set a date for disclosure of the X June.

 

We do not consider that the Claimant would be required to provide disclosure earlier than this date and any application in this regard will be defended vigorously.

 

Yours faithfully..."

 

Any ideas what that means or whether I should challenge it?!

[stevieb52]

Hi nicklea

I am still waiting on the resent court forms, I'll post again when I have something.

Thanks

Steve

 

Hi,

 

This is all rather confusing. Can I just confirm what has happened?

 

1) The creditor obtained a CCJ by default and the debtor did not acknowledge service.

2) The debtor attended a reconsideration hearing that resulted in a charging order on the house and an agreed monthly payment

3) The court order did not reflect what the judge actually said at the hearing

4) No payments have been made by the debtor

 

It would be very useful to know what the court order actually said

 

Also, you haven't said what the actual Particulars of Claim say. Before you got the Notice of Allocation you would have had a form that gave details of the claim. It would have said something like "The Claimant claims £xxx

following a judgement made in ....."

 

you would have received this form and you would have responded to it, otherwise the creditor would have got another default judgement. The fact that you've got a Notice of Allocation means that you have responded to the claim form. If you no longer have it I suggest that you phone the court as a matter of urgency and tell them you've mislaid the Claim Form and would like a copy of it.

 

Both the court order and claim form are very important in enabling people to help you with a defence.

[vselym]

stevieb52

 

in the first instance is there any chance of scanning in the letter explaining why a CCA isnt required ?

[stevieb52]

Hi vselym

I only have a poor quality photocopy of the letter so I'll write it out, the cca request was sent to the RBS:

 

"Dear Mr x

 

Re: Request for copy agreement, section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

We refer to your recent correspondence dated x/x/2007 regarding the above act.

 

Due to the bank previously obtaininga County Court Judgement on x/x/2007, the sums due to the Royal Bank of Scotland are being recovered within the terms of the judgement and not the original CCA. Therefore, the Bank is not required to supply you with a copy of the credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Should further assistance be required, please do not hesitate to contact us at the above office.

 

Yours sincerely...."

 

Thanks

Steve

stevieb52

 

in the first instance is there any chance of scanning in the letter explaining why a CCA isnt required ?

[stevieb52]

Hi nicklea/vselym,

 

I also have received a copy of the case details from the court, which states the Particulars of claim as the following:

 

"By agreement entered into between the Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has failed to pay the sum of x or any part thereof. The Claimant has requested payment but the Defendant has refused or delayed to pay.

 

The Claimant claims the sum of x and interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from x/x/2007 until judgement or sooner payment. Costs. The claim does not include issues under the Human Rights Act 1998."

 

I hope that helps with regard to forming a defence please let me know if I need to get any other info.

 

Thanks for your help

Steve

[stevieb52]

I also should have mentioned that the SAR sent to the RBS recently has been replied to, they have supplied a list of all transactions for the last 6 years (to the day).

 

They have completely ignored the fact that there was a request for a copy of the original signed agreement, can I go back to them asking for this as they haven't complied with everything detailed in the SAR?

 

Thanks

Steve

[2Grumpy]

In your SAR did you ask for statements or everything? If you asked for everything then the CCA should have been included

 

Does your account go back further than 6 years? If so then they should have sent stuff from more than 6 years ago. Be aware that NatWest changed their computer systems 6 years ago and they still have access to the old one.

 

They are probably saying that the CCA request does not have to be responded to if the account is closed, and that the account was closed by the CCJ judgement. That doesn't mean that they can withold it from the SAR. They have to keep documents for 6 years after an account is closed (they might try to say just 6 years - that's wrong).

[stevieb52]

Hi there 2Grumpy,

 

In your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) did you ask for statements or everything? If you asked for everything then the CCA should have been included.

 

This is the version I/we sent:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Account No: xxxxxx

Sort Code: xxxxxx

s.7 DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 – DATA SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

I request that RBS provides me with all details held regarding my accounts, including, but not exclusively as I require access to all information relating to me as a Data Subject under the Data Protection Act;

• Details of all default charges for unpaid items and fees charged for managing the above account, which I have paid in the last six years

• Copies of all original Consumer Credit Act agreements for each account held in my name

• Details of all assignments, whether equitable, absolute, legal or otherwise, of the account and documentary evidence of such assignment

• Details of all manual intervention that has taken place on accounts held in my name, with documentary evidence of such.

• Details of logic involved in any automated decisions you made about me or my accounts with you.

Please note that this is not an exclusive list, as I require access to all information held by RBS regarding me, as a Data Subject under the Data Protection Act.

I understand that RBS is obliged to provide this information under the Data Protection Act 1998. I have enclosed a £10 postal order to cover the statutory fee that can be charged for this service."

 

So yes we did specifically request the copies of the CCA agreement(s), so should I write back asking for this info?

Thanks

Steve

Edited May 19, 2008 by stevieb52
Daft html code from word

[stevieb52]

Hello,

Given that the RBS didn't supply all the info requested under the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) how does this seem for a response:

 

"Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account No: xxxxxxx

Sort Code: xxxxxx

 

s.7 DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 – DATA SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

 

I am in receipt of the documents that you have supplied in response to my Data Protection Act information request dated 06/05/08. The disclosure of personal data is incomplete in that at least the following documents are missing.

 

• Copies of all original Consumer Credit Act agreements for each account held in my name

• Details of all assignments, whether equitable, absolute, legal or otherwise, of the account and documentary evidence of such assignment

• Details of all manual intervention that has taken place on accounts held in my name, with documentary evidence of such.

• Details of logic involved in any automated decisions you made about me or my accounts with you.

 

This is not an exhaustive list by any means, it is just an example of some of the information I am missing.

 

Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

You have a further 28 days to comply.

 

Yours faithfully,"

 

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Steve

[stevieb52]

Sorry to bump this but I really could do with some advice re this CPR Part 18 request reply, please can anyone help with explaining what it means or have any ideas as to how I can reply/contest it?

 

Thanks

Steve

 

 

I have sent the CPR Part 18 Request and received the following response...

 

"We acknowledge receipt of you Part 18 request which was made on the X May.

 

We are taking the claimants instructions regarding your request, however we consider the request to be premature in mind the court has set a date for disclosure of the X June.

 

We do not consider that the Claimant would be required to provide disclosure earlier than this date and any application in this regard will be defended vigorously.

 

Yours faithfully..."

[debbbbsy]

sorry I can't help with your CPR request.We have sent a very similar letter to the RBS.again and again.We are currently being ignored by The recovery dept in Telford ,the data manager & the banks solicitors.Its pretty clear that once you start to question them they clam up.good luck.

[paulwlton]

Hi vselym

I only have a poor quality photocopy of the letter so I'll write it out, the cca request was sent to the RBS:

 

"Dear Mr x

 

Re: Request for copy agreement, section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

We refer to your recent correspondence dated x/x/2007 regarding the above act.

 

Due to the bank previously obtaininga County Court Judgement on x/x/2007, the sums due to the Royal Bank of Scotland are being recovered within the terms of the judgement and not the original CCA. Therefore, the Bank is not required to supply you with a copy of the credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Should further assistance be required, please do not hesitate to contact us at the above office.

 

Yours sincerely...."

 

Thanks

Steve

 

A bit of a Grey area is this one, and one that can only be decided by a court.

[stevieb52]

sorry I can't help with your CPR request.We have sent a very similar letter to the RBS.again and again.We are currently being ignored by The recovery dept in Telford ,the data manager & the banks solicitors.Its pretty clear that once you start to question them they clam up.good luck.

 

Thanks debbbbsy, I sent the letter and there has been no response so far given the experience you've had I'm not really expecting one!

 

Its all going to court so hopefully it'll help the case that they haven't responded with the info they should have!

 

Hope you get a response soon.

[stevieb52]

A bit of a Grey area is this one, and one that can only be decided by a court.

 

Thanks Paul, I'm not sure if you can help but I need to provide the court with the standard disclosure by list before 4.00pm next Monday.

 

Do you think I should I include their reply in the list?

 

Thanks

Steve

[debbbbsy]

Stevie...who are you sending your letters too.

Last thursday we sent letters to Joyce E Tudor.Made a formal complaint to Sir Fred Goodwin[ group chief executive @ RBS] & the Customer Care Team @ Telford [see D&D for letter sent].Got a response next day,looking into our complaint,will have to wait to see what they do next.

 

Phone number for customer care team is 01952 206277.

good luck

Debbie

[stevieb52]

Stevie...who are you sending your letters too.

Last thursday we sent letters to Joyce E Tudor.Made a formal complaint to Sir Fred Goodwin[ group chief executive @ RBS] & the Customer Care Team @ Telford [see D&D for letter sent].Got a response next day,looking into our complaint,will have to wait to see what they do next.

 

Phone number for customer care team is 01952 206277.

good luck

Debbie

 

Thanks for the info Debbbbsy, I have been sending them to the head office via special delivery.

 

Still not heard anythings else and I'm inclined not to push it at the moment as the onus is on them to provide the info not us to make them and I think this will strengthen our court case.

 

I'll defo keep the details though so thanks v much!

 

Steve

[debbbbsy]

Good luck....let us know what happens . PS The RBS recovery team are a bunch of ***k***. From someone whose been dealing with them for the last 15 years.

Debbie