H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***

[Alphageek]

We understand that we all make the odd mistake

 

There's always one joker isn't there?

[MARTIN3030]

"If there are insufficient funds in your account when we receive

cheques or other items for payment, it is within our discretion

whether the payment is processed."

 

 

Clearly this is very misleading since the account holder will not know,and they dont say how or what will influence or deny the outcome.

 

In Smiths April Judgement,there was a very similar clause which led Smith to determine the OFT assertions that the terms were unintelligible was right.

[djgordyp]

I don't know if this has happened to anyone else or with any other bank, or maybe I get special treatment :D

On two occassions since December I have had a returned DD, and believe it or not I have'nt been charged for these.

Maybe they're going to wait and let them build up and hit me with a big bill sometime. Or maybe they just forgot.

[yourbank]

That specific term seems as clear as a bell to me but I have worked with the enemy

[barry_2008]

Cash plus have the right idea they have 2 tarrids.

 

One for those that have verry limited usuage they charge £0.96 per transaction or 4.95 a month.

 

There shouldnt be any need forn Direct Debit Charges or Overdraft Charges if you do it that way.

 

Then at least they make a bomb from every single account.

 

I seriously doubt A court would rule that th banks can not charge a single penny. As it will mean an end to banking as we no it and the economy wouldnt be bale to cope.

[yourbank]

Class Action Lawsuit against Sun Trust Bank, inc.

According to the suit, Webb, Klase & Lemond's client had overdraft fees deducted from her consumer checking account even though there were sufficient funds in her account to cover the transactions in question. In addition, the suit alleges that SunTrust routinely enforces a policy whereby charges incurred are posted to consumer accounts in order of largest to smallest amounts, even when larger charges occur days after smaller charges in an effort to maximize the number and amount of overdraft and/or service fees imposed upon consumer accounts.

 

 

 

Lawsuit Filed Against SunTrust Banks, Inc. Regarding Overdraft Fees

[Bookworm]

"If there are insufficient funds in your account when we receive

cheques or other items for payment, it is within our discretion

whether the payment is processed."

 

 

Clearly this is very misleading since the account holder will not know,and they dont say how or what will influence or deny the outcome.

 

In Smiths April Judgement,there was a very similar clause which led Smith to determine the OFT assertions that the terms were unintelligible was right.

 

You think? Listen to this:

 

Barclays' account allows me to put money in on the same day to cover debits without charging me a fee, right? (reserve fee).

 

On the 16th, mortgage due. Not sure what happened, but long story short, the money didn't get transferred on time (my fault, not blaming the bank on this one), so on the morning of the 16th, my mortgage got presented and bounced. When I logged in, I noticed the amount was short, so immediately transferred sufficient funds.

 

Sooo, here's the thing about the reserve fees: it's supposed to be a tier system, o/draft, then reserve (with £22 fee) then if you go over the reserve amount, £8 per item passed/bounced.

 

BUT: I put money back on same day, so wouldn't incur the £22 fee, yet, I am apparently still going to be charged £8 for bouncing the mortgage. But hang on, how can I be charged for going over my reserve when I was back within the limits? The whole thing doesn't work out! And where is the clear and transparent in all this? Their T&Cs don't even cover this eventuality, so there and then, methinks B's are going to have problems very soon. (well, they always do when I start on them anyway, lol).

 

B's rushed in to bring in new T&cs in the expectation they would lose the test case and slowly but surely, the holes in those are starting to show.

[The Phantom]

All works one way though. Last time my mortgage came out they (NatWest) took almost £70.- too much by mistake.

It didn't leave me overdrawn or anything, but to me this constitutes unarranged borrowing on their side, but apparently I can't charge them a £38.- fee or interest on it, although they argue in court such charges are fair.

It took them over a week to refund the money they took out of my account without authorisation.

If it was the other way around....guess what...!!

[yourbank]

All works one way though. Last time my mortgage came out they (NatWest) took almost £70.- too much by mistake.

It didn't leave me overdrawn or anything, but to me this constitutes unarranged borrowing on their side, but apparently I can't charge them a £38.- fee or interest on it, although they argue in court such charges are fair.

It took them over a week to refund the money they took out of my account without authorisation.

If it was the other way around....guess what...!!

That is because the contract does not allow it. The contract allows for variation within it and if the contract had been varied given sufficient time then you would have been allowed to charge them £38 however it doesn't. I am a fan of contract variation but I have only ever seen 1 in my entire time on forums. It's here and I think the bank was HSBC but we are going back 2 years I think(i'd get the link if I could spend 5 hours searching but it is on here somewhere).

[The Phantom]

I could send them a new list of my charges then, could I ?

Which will apply to all future transgressions from their side.

I am sure if they can send me new terms and conditions every so often so can I ?

[yourbank]

I could send them a new list of my charges then, could I ?

You need to vary the bank contract giving 28 days to do so and the bank have to agree either by (a) not responding or (b) by responding in agreement with that.

 

Which will apply to all future transgressions from their side.

Once the variation is agreed then yep.

 

I am sure if they can send me new terms and conditions every so often so can I ?

 

Techinically, yes. However the bank can also terminate your contract with them though so it is a very high risk strategy.

[yourbank]

You think? Listen to this:

 

Barclays' account allows me to put money in on the same day to cover debits without charging me a fee, right? (reserve fee).

A few banks do allow same day pay in.

 

On the 16th, mortgage due. Not sure what happened, but long story short, the money didn't get transferred on time (my fault, not blaming the bank on this one), so on the morning of the 16th, my mortgage got presented and bounced. When I logged in, I noticed the amount was short, so immediately transferred sufficient funds.

 

Sooo, here's the thing about the reserve fees: it's supposed to be a tier system, o/draft, then reserve (with £22 fee) then if you go over the reserve amount, £8 per item passed/bounced.

Haven't we discussed the reserve fee(you not got rid of the reserve yet from your account?

 

BUT: I put money back on same day, so wouldn't incur the £22 fee, yet, I am apparently still going to be charged £8 for bouncing the mortgage. But hang on, how can I be charged for going over my reserve when I was back within the limits? The whole thing doesn't work out! And where is the clear and transparent in all this? Their T&Cs don't even cover this eventuality, so there and then, methinks B's are going to have problems very soon. (well, they always do when I start on them anyway, lol).

Seen it many times with NatWest that money paid in and takes account into the black so to speak yet item is returned and no overdraft excess fees are paid.

B's rushed in to bring in new T&cs in the expectation they would lose the test case and slowly but surely, the holes in those are starting to show.

 

Not sure it is a hole but their reserve fee get out clause might be

[Bookworm]

A few banks do allow same day pay in. Yes, I know.

 

 

Haven't we discussed the reserve fee(you not got rid of the reserve yet from your account? Nope, on the list of "to do" things... hopefully next week when kids go back to school.

 

 

Seen it many times with NatWest that money paid in and takes account into the black so to speak yet item is returned and no overdraft excess fees are paid. Ah, but the difference is that b's T&Cs specifically allow for this.

 

 

Not sure it is a hole but their reserve fee get out clause might be They don't have a get out clause. :-? They can't apply terms which are not explicitly written in the T&Cs.

[Crapstone]

My mortgage company takes more than the DD allows, my bank allows this. I should be applying fees to both of them.

[yourbank]

A few banks do allow same day pay in. Yes, I know.

 

 

Haven't we discussed the reserve fee(you not got rid of the reserve yet from your account? Nope, on the list of "to do" things... hopefully next week when kids go back to school.

 

 

Seen it many times with NatWest that money paid in and takes account into the black so to speak yet item is returned and no overdraft excess fees are paid. Ah, but the difference is that b's T&Cs specifically allow for this.

 

You got that term? Would be interested to take a look at that one.

 

Not sure it is a hole but their reserve fee get out clause might be They don't have a get out clause. :-? They can't apply terms which are not explicitly written in the T&Cs.

The above comment re get out clause was referring to getting rid of Reserve amount and also the patched up T&C's

[yourbank]

The House of Lords Appeal is to be heard 22nd June 2009 to 24th June 2009(confirmed that this morning with the listings office.

[Bookworm]

Ah well, back to twiddling our thumbs until then. Ah no, hang on, sorry, forgot that meanwhile, people are losing their jobs, their homes, their normal lives.

[Alphageek]

The House of Lords Appeal is to be heard 22nd June 2009 to 24th June 2009(confirmed that this morning with the listings office.

 

Thanks for posting that info yourbank.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the update yourbank. So is it fair to say we are looking at an Autumn judgement?

 

TheyrCriminals

[Thailand]

Haven't we discussed the reserve fee(you not got rid of the reserve yet from your account? Nope, on the list of "to do" things... hopefully next week when kids go back to school.

 

They finally 'allowed' me to opt-out on the third attempt.

 

Mate gave up after two attempts. They pretended to be baffled four times....whatever, bank.

 

Let me know if they let you do it first time, for some reason they ain't keen to do as you ask. Just because they say they have actioned it does not mean they will! When the reserve is gone from online banking then you're free from their bull. Well, aside from their ever so lawful service charges.

[MARTIN3030]

You think? Listen to this:

 

Barclays' account allows me to put money in on the same day to cover debits without charging me a fee, right? (reserve fee).

 

On the 16th, mortgage due. Not sure what happened, but long story short, the money didn't get transferred on time (my fault, not blaming the bank on this one), so on the morning of the 16th, my mortgage got presented and bounced. When I logged in, I noticed the amount was short, so immediately transferred sufficient funds.

 

Sooo, here's the thing about the reserve fees: it's supposed to be a tier system, o/draft, then reserve (with £22 fee) then if you go over the reserve amount, £8 per item passed/bounced.

 

BUT: I put money back on same day, so wouldn't incur the £22 fee, yet, I am apparently still going to be charged £8 for bouncing the mortgage. But hang on, how can I be charged for going over my reserve when I was back within the limits? The whole thing doesn't work out! And where is the clear and transparent in all this? Their T&Cs don't even cover this eventuality, so there and then, methinks B's are going to have problems very soon. (well, they always do when I start on them anyway, lol).

 

B's rushed in to bring in new T&cs in the expectation they would lose the test case and slowly but surely, the holes in those are starting to show.

 

 

 

 

Yes its remarkable how they changed a few things.

I have the whole test case from start to Feb 09 including those terms and conditions each bank submitted.

I am trawling through the Barclays stuff.

Barclays are maintaining that my claim fails because their terms and conditions were ruled as being incapable of being penalties at common law.

They claim that their business terms and conditions are no different than their current account ones.

Thing is the Judge only looked as far back as their 2002 terms.(Mine were 1999)

So if they maintain that the terms are the same for business and personal accounts-theres the small matter of the Judge ruling that the clauses in all the Banks current accounts were in part unintelligible English language.Barclays however are quick to point out that this ruling was made under Unfair Consumer terms-which does not apply to business accounts.

They want it all bloody ways.

[HSBCrusher]

slightly off topic, but this shows just how trust worthy the banks and the whole system are...

 

some facinating reading while we are waiting.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2103223.html

[InformedSearcher]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the update yourbank. So is it fair to say we are looking at an Autumn judgement?

 

TheyrCriminals

 

Erm, was it not discussed that if they lose there's somewhere else to go?

 

UK Court of Banks, European Court of Banks, World Court of Banks and finally The Universe Court of Banks. Should they lose the latter they just say 'no'.

 

Seriously though I think the Financial Institutions, by taking the route they have in effect started a level of distrust - Account holders will consider that whatever the outcome this will take many years to overcome. In my own case I've experienced a one-sided apoproach to any dealings I've had recently. Remember, these places are allowed to enter whatever data they like on CRA's and if wrong it's the consumer who must prove it.

Michael

[TheyrCriminals]

Informed Searcher,

 

Yes of course they may be able to appeal to the European Court of Justice most of us all know this remains a possibility. I was asking whether it is likely that the judgement in the House of Lords appeal will be delivered in autumn?

 

TheyrCriminals

[yourbank]

Informed Searcher,

 

Yes of course they may be able to appeal to the European Court of Justice most of us all know this remains a possibility. I was asking whether it is likely that the judgement in the House of Lords appeal will be delivered in autumn?

 

TheyrCriminals

More than likely is the answer.