HELP! Alleged council tax arrears, 10+ years ago, now bailliffs turn up

[ajwliverpool]

Hi, hope its OK I relocate the following request for help, on behalf of a friend of mine (tdliverpool, who will follow this thread soon!). It was mistakenly put in the Welcome tot the forum section. Its related to certified bailiffs (Equita) and alleged council tax arrears - so hope you can help.

 

tdliverpool wrote:

Hello everyone, this is my first visit to this forum, I am here because i need some help and advice with regard to Council Tax Demands that i recieved last week, so if anyone out there can give me a step by step guide as to what i can do to resolve this issue, i would be eternally gratefull.

Last week i recieved an envelope from a bailiffs with three demands for Council Tax (all three letters dated 11/03/0 saying i had not paid my Council Tax for the years 1997-98-and 99, and totaling £2428.00, i phoned the Council Tax and told them i HAD paid for those years and the lady said i would have to put it in writing, which i did, and took it down to the local one-stop office, i explained to the lady that we left the property in question in May 2000 after aquiring a mortgage for our new address, and that when i rang the council tax to tell them we had moved, and they asked for my old address, which i gave them, nothing was said about any arrears, because there wern't any, i also explained that any such arrears would have shown on my credit check for my application for the Mortgage, she agreed to this and said she didn't understand it.

I then rang the bailifs and told them that i disputed the claim but they were not interested,and the action i had taken with the council would not stop them taking action against me, and that the longer i left it the more charges would be added on, so i offered to pay them a hundred pounds a month untill it was all sorted, because i did not want all these charges added on, he agreed to this and asked for money right away, i said i would start at the end of the month when i get paid, (hopping it will all be sorted out by then) so he agreed to this, and yet, to-day, i had another letter from the bailiffs saying that i hadn't paid and that they were comming to my home in the next few days to take all my belongings for auction.

Why has it taken up to ten years for this to come to light?, how did i get a mortgage if i suposedly had so much Council Tax arrears?, and why did they not do this when i informed them of my changed address eight years ago?, the one stop office said that they do not know, but i still owe the money.

I am awaiting a reply to my letter from the Council Tax Office, but in the meantime, can anybody please give me any advice.

[debt4get]

have you got any reciepts at all for when u paid the council tax for those years they are claiming?

[tdliverpool]

Hi nblaen, unfortunatly i havn't, actually, i think i threw them out when i did a clearout last November when we moved house again, the Council were informed then that we were moving and they said then that our Council Tax was up to date, in fact it was paid in full, so we were in advance, they never said anything about any arrears.

[Michael Browne]

Should the bailiffs return, do NOT let them in. Keep doors and windows closed and give them this letter, (copy to council):

 

YOUR ADDRESS LINE 2

LINE 3

POSTCODE

To: [NAME OF BAILIFF]

[DATE]

BY HAND

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Your Reference

 

[NAME OF] Authority appears to have instructed you to recover [COUNCIL TAX ARREARS]

 

I hereby give notice that this account is in dispute and (local authority) are at present conducting fuirther enqiries

 

For this reason, I would like to request that this account be referred back to (local authority) until the relevant investigations are completed.

 

I would point out that I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (local authority).

This notice directs that you are not being given entry to my home or to levy goods contained within. This notice revokes your entitlement to charge a Walking Possessions fee. Please be advised that if your fees are found to contradict [Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and you may be liable for criminal prosecution under section 1 to 5 of Fraud Act 2006, and I will automatically file a Form 4 complaint at your certificating court.

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property, if a bailiff threatens me with getting a locksmith without a levy or tries to break & enter my home, I will automatically make a complaint to the police and the bailiff may receive a criminal record and will not be allowed to continue trading as a certificated bailiff.

Please provide me with a breakdown of your fees and pass them through the letterbox

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

cc local authority

[debt4get]

I am not an expert regarding council tax however, I do not think it would show up on credit rating as it is not a consumer debt, I would have a look at the bailiff section to see what rights of entry etc., they have, if it is with the bailiff then the chances are it will have already been in court and a judgement would have been entered. I would have a look at the other threads on council tax and see if anyone else in your position

[Pinky69]

There is a forum on Bailiffs and Council Tax in the Consumer Forums section.

[tdliverpool]

Thank you Michael, i'm feeling better already, iv'e even put the rope back in the shed,

[tdliverpool]

I didn't think it would show up either, but when we applied for the Mortgage we were both working but on low income, so had difficulty getting a Mortgage, when we did get one we were told that the only thing that could stop us was if we were found to be in arrears with the council Tax, that is how i know they checked.

[tdliverpool]

Thank you for that info Pinky69.

[ajwliverpool]

I have a few questions for experienced forum members:

1. If the debt is so old, can it not be struck off completely? is this not 'Statute of Limitations' law - heard of it but don't know where/what specific part to loo for/what letters to use... does this apply if it is a council tax debt?
   
   
2. If yes, what is the procedure or form letter that will assist this?
   
3. Should TDLiverpool request all files under the DPA legislation? If yes, from whom - the Council, the DCA (DCA = 'EQUITA' by the way) or both?
   
4. I do not know how they expect anyone to prove they paid or not, so long ago, who keeps records that long? well maybe me from now on... if the Council cannot provide proof, surely they cannot chase the money?
   
5. Given that 4 letters arrived on the same day (all dated the 11th March) and 5th letter arrived yesterday - is it legal for them to add so many charges for letters and calls?
   
6. If TDLiverpool checks his credit record, and there is no CCJ for this, surely the letter (which threatened breaking in and taking all good, then applying auction and bailiff fees, and 'recommending imprisonment') -is completely illegal and already harrassment?
   
7. What can be done about that? It has already caused severe distress, and absence from work - can these people not be sued for this behaviour?
   
8. Can TDLiverpool not just refuse to deal with the DCA and ignore them, dealing solely with the Council to get this investigated and resolved?
   
9. Can anyone suggest a step-by-step plan for TDLiverpool to try to resolve this?

Would appreciate people understanding and help. The last point about hand-holding TDLiverpool through this is the most important.

 

If you can help on ONE OR MORE of the specific points above - or add any other relevent advice - it would be really appreciated...

 

Thanks for help already received. Michael the letter above is brill and I am sure will be put to good use today!!!

 

This has caused a lot of distress in the family and it is very daunting to try to pick-and-choose various bits of advioce scattered throughout this forum, as some advice may not be valid anymore or might be plain wrong...

 

PLEASE HELP:|

[sillygirl1]

Make an appointment to see your local MP, get them involved and then the council will have to listen.

 

You need also to state that you will go for a complaint of misfeascance to the Local Councils Ombudsman service as clearly you have had no communication from the council in later years regarding this alleged debt and that they had your current address every time you moved.

[babybear39]

I agree with sillygirl1. MP ASAP and a complaint to the local council ombudsman, that's what he/she's there for.

[debt4get]

i think main problem here is most people here are posting about consumer credit which are non priority debts

this case does not fall into this category it is a priority debt that you can and they will, fine, imprison, and drag you kicking and screaming into court.

there must be some record of payment to the council, as most people pay by direct debit monthly I take it this was not the case, how was the money paid? somewhere there has to be a paper trail. I agree with previous posters, ring, email, and get hold of your local MP

as too a statute of limitations dont know there are still people being chased for the old poll tax, not too sure this is going to apply where local government is involved

[tdliverpool]

Thank you all for your time and excellent advice, i will certainly make an apointment to see my local MP, and also file a complaint to the Local Council Ombudsman, in answer to your question nblaen, my wife, on collecting her family allowance at the PO, paid the Council Tax at the same time, and as i mentioned earlier, i had a clearout last November which i now bitterly regret,( i will NEVER throw away anything ever again).

Last November, we moved house again and as i have in the past, i informed the C-Tax of my move and of the fact that the house we were moving to was uninhabitable, it took me (because of work comitments)several months to get the house in order, i told the C-Tax when i started the repairs on the house and they said it was no problem and to tell them when we move in, (the C-Tax for where we were living was already paid in full last November) which i did do, three days later i had a C-Tax bill for £811.00 for the address we had just moved to, i appealed and it was reduced to £450.00, again i appealed and again it was reduced to £175.00 (this paperwork i still have),i appealed again and they said i must pay this amount, but after speaking to no-less than 6 different people at the local office, no-one can tell me exactly what this is for, or how they came to this figure, i pointed out a wording on the concessions page of the C-Tax which says there could be a six month concession if the house was uninhabitable, and one could even live there for up to six weeks without being liable for C-Tax, yet the lady in the C-Tax office said that it didn't exist, so i printed a copy off and it still didn't make any difference, we piad the £175.00 to avoid any charges and put it down as a contribution towards some Council dinner(joke),

This is how i know for a fact that we paid our Taxes all those years ago, because i try to do everything by the book, and i always pay my bills.

Thank's again.

[sillygirl1]

If there is a warrant for older years, they only have a liimited life (1 year) so if any bailiff turns up tell them to take a run - and ask for a copy of the warrant and the copy of THEIR registration.... that might make them slow up on the hassling.

[tdliverpool]

Thank you for that info sillygirl1.

[debt4get]

According to the limitations act states:

 

"

If the Council Tax was due more than 6 years ago then the council are unable to ask the Court for a Liability Order (a liability order allows the council to deduct the Council Tax debt from your wages or benefits)."

 

If you have definately had no contact from the council about this then I believe it is up to them to prove you owe it and not you to prove that you do not owe it.

 

Be aware they don't just add it to this years due tax

 

If bailiffs are collecting then it looks like a liability order has been made as bailiffs can only collect on an order from the courts.

found this on another thread 4 u m8

[tdliverpool]

Thanx again nblaen. I don't think there is a liability order because we've had nothing from the court's and the letters we had last week are the first we knew about this, as advised, i have composed a letter to the council ombudsman which i will post on Tuesday and i will arange to see my local MP ASAP. Thanx again.

[tdliverpool]

I hope you don't mind but i have moved this message because i put it in the wrong Thread.

I am new to these forums (see thread 23/3/08 and with your help and advice i have been able to hold off the bailiffs for now, or at least till the Councils investigations are complete, and for that i thank you all.:cool:

This forum has opened my eyes with regard to Council Taxes, i have my problems but when i read what others are going through i am absolutely disgusted, and while reading these threads only one person comes to mind, albeit Archetypal English Folklore, and a certain gentleman who, armed only with a longbow and a bunch of merry men, fought, and eventually bested a tyrant who gravely abused his possition by appropriating land and possesions, levying exccesive taxation, and persecuting the poor.

These days, Stealth Taxes like Council Tax, and increased petrol prices, these hit the poorest the most, people on low earnings cannot live in this so called Modern Society, The Great late George Harrison got it spot on, ( TAXMAN 1966) 1st line, "let me tell you how it will be", last line, "and your working for no-one but me".

[ajwliverpool]

Update on behalf of TDLiverpool:

 

The council refused to send any information requested under the Data Protection, as did the Bailliffs.

 

The council actually told the bailliffs to get back on the case before informing TDLiverpool. The council did not contact TDL, the first TDL knew of it was when the bailliffs sent a letter, on Wednesday last, claiming they had visited, seen something of value, and were going to scoop it unless TDL paid up.

 

The council were very dismissive on the phone. A secretary acted like a gatekeeper and refused to let TDL speak to anyone else, saying the matter had been investigated to their satisfaction, passed back to the bailliffs, and that was that. Any specific questions, this woman refused to answer, repeatedly saying 'its been investigated', and refusing to be any help whatsoever. This was over Thursday and Friday last week.

 

On Saturday TDL finally got a letter from the Council, with a very badly worded and confused 'explanation' - claiming where the debts came from - and provided evidence supposedly showing where the debt came from. But they evidence used a different reference number and appeared to show the balance was paid. At least the numbers were different than those in the letter itself. The whole way the letter has been drawn up, is muddled, bad grammar, and self-contradictory. Its like they told the bailliffs to carry on with their job, and threw this piece of rubbish together as an afterthought.

 

So the whole thing is very confused.

 

The local MP has been no use whatsoever, the council obstructive and confused, and in the meantime the bailliffs are harrassing my friend. Every day they seem to add charges for letters and phantom visits, which when challenged with the council, the council provided a sheet of paper outlining the charges they had agreed with their certified bailliffs.

 

The whole attitude is, "we've investigated, you're wrong, pay up or you'll end up in more debt." It stinks. And I am really worried about the stress my friend and his family are under.

 

Any advice on where to go from here would be very welcome.

 

Kind Regards

A

[ajwliverpool]

Just to add again.

 

• How can the council chase someone for a council debt 10 or so years ago, and refuse to provide any proof? Just say - 'its your debt cos we say so'?
  
• How can it be that the first thing the alleged debtor knows of this, after a decade, is from a bailliff threatening to take stuff from their house and adding huge fees for every letter and phantom visit?
  
• The council haven't satisfactorily proved anything, and only gave it a 'token' investigation, and both council and bailliffs refused to provide any files. Do the Data Protection laws talked about in this forum not apply if its a council debt?
  
• CAB are 6 weeks waiting time. My friend TDL is not getting any help in this matter - can someone at least recommend a specialist solicitor in these matters?

One final point.

 

TDL appealed a council tax bill of £800+ for a house he was waiting to move into while the council did it up. Upon appealing it was reduced to half. Upon appealing again it was reduced under £170. This was all over the last two months.

 

Then all this nonsense from the past came up, out of nowhere - suddenly 3 Bailliffs letter arrived out of the blue, same date on each, and a charge for each and threats of imprisonment etc. This within a week or so of the Council backing down and finally charging the correct amount for their current property.

 

Call me a cynic but I think someone got their knuckles rapped over that first fiasco, and decided to try some form of petty revenge...

 

Please any help most welcome!!!

[Saffronflowers]

Send a PM to Tomtubby she will advise completly on this - you will find her in the bailiffs forum Hope that helps

 

SFx

[ajwliverpool]

Will do that now thanks!

[tomtubby]

Under Regulation 34(3) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 it states the following:

"The council should not go to the magistrate’s court and ask for a liability order for council tax if the application is made more than six years after the council tax became due. This is under Regulation 34(3) Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992"