Cl Finance/howardchoen Please Help**WON**

[la23hin]

HI

 

This is going to be a long post

 

7 years ago i had a lot of debt and my income halved and i was not able to pay my debts, so eventually i was defaulted on all 11 accounts during 2002, i saw an advert in the paper and contacted a company called euro debt, they contacted all my creditors and offered reduced payments which were excepted, a year later i found out there was a company called cccs who did it for free and didnt want a lump sum up front of a monthly fee, so i switched my payments to them but they reduced them because of my incomings and outgoings, but again all the companies collecting on the creditors behalf were ok, the beginning of 2006 the way in which i was paid made it hard for me to pay cccs on time for them to make the payments to my creditors, so i took it on myself to call each company and pay them direct this was never a problem and i payed all 11 accounts every month, but in december 2007 i recieved a letter from cl finance saying they had brought two of my debts on the 28th sep 2007 from hsbc but metropolitan had been collecting the debt for them one an overdraft and the other a credit card, and they were happy to carry on with the reduced payments but would be reviwed at times, i paid them in december and january but at the end of jan i found a lump and had to go for test a the hospital, and my mind was elsewhere on 29th feb i tried several times to call the company to pay but a message said there lines were extremley busy, and could not put me through to agent so i called them on monday to pay feb and march payment, which she was willing to take i asked if the account was up to date and she replied yes but its now got a county court claim against it i asked her what it meant and she told me on the 29th of feb they registered it with an online court, and i should recieve the papers this week i recieved them yesterday, one for £7000 & £4100 i dont have the funds to stop them regestering a ccj, also the default dates for these two accounts were 28/02/2002 and 17/05/2002 so they are just about to all come of my file, also the other thing is my job i was made redudant last week which was not expected, the company i was working for would have all most certanily have sacked me, but i have got two job offers already but because of the job sector i work in they do 12 monthly credit checks, and when i tell them they will not employ me, i dont have any other skills and am worried i could lose my house if i dont find work in my industry, is there anything i could do to stop them going a head, also can they do this after been late by a month.thanks for any help or advice.

[babybear39]

Hiya la23hin welcome to CAG

 

Sorry to hear you've been having a bad time of it.

 

You're in the right place now

 

I'm almost certain that you can defend the CCJs as you've been paying regularly and have very good reasons for the late payments. A judge would look grimly on them trying to wreck your chances of employment.

 

Someone with more knowledge than I will be along shortly, so try not to worry.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

[tiglet]

What are these particular debts for? I would be interested to know if they have a valid CCA or if they consist of unlawful charges - one of which is a full defence and one of which is a partial defence to a CCJ.

[la23hin]

i think one was a loan and the other a credit card both from 1999 i will try and find out for sure what the accounts are for and post back asap

[la23hin]

the one account was a credit card but in poc they are saying it was for overdrawn bank account which is incorrect, and the other account was a loan and a current account that they seem to have put together as one debt, i dont know if there are any charges on the account but probably as i was not making the required payments at the time, also i will not be able to get statement from the hsbc as the debt has been with different dca for nearly 6 years now, and i dont think the dca will have added any charges or interest

 

please can someone advise i am really starting to panic

[tiglet]

Don't panic!

 

First thing to do is acknowledge the claim stating that you intend to defend. You do not need to send a SAR/CCA as this needs to be included in the information they send you in order to defend your claim.

 

I'm not a legal bod, but I'm sure one will come along soon and help you. If no-one has come within the next 24 hours, post again and I'll get someone for you.

[la23hin]

thankyou youall seem very nice, anyway i have acnowledge the claim forms and now have 28 days to defend i will wait and see if anyone can help me

 

thanks

[42man]

ok if you have acknowledged the claim then you must send this out by recorded delivery....(reproduced courtesy of PT2537)

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

[la23hin]

thanks 42 man ammended printed and on the way to post office thankyou

[tiglet]

Excellent - I couldn't find it, but knew someone would be around you could!

 

Or maybe just knows it off by heart ...

[master woody]

The exact same thing happened to me, see my thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/127086-going-court-woody-cl.html

The good new is after reading lots of threads on CL, They seem to back down when you defend, I think they hope that most people will just except the CCJ and CL secure the debt….

In my case they said they will discontinue if I start paying (which I’ve always done) just waiting for the paper work

Chill out, just stay on top of it!

[la23hin]

thanks woody i have just read your post it was very intersting to see how similar our claims were, i hope i get a similar result to what you are getting, as them registering the ccj's would result in me not being able to work in my industry again and thats the only industry i know.

[la23hin]

hi

 

I sent h.choen 2 cpr request for both accounts and they have wrote back about account 1 saying

 

we are not obliged to provide this information and would advise that the particular of claim detailed in the county court claim form should be sufficent to allow you to respond accordingly.

 

please be advised that this firm is not the creditor in this matter. The creditor is cl finance and we are merely instructed to act on there behalf of that company to recover the outstanding balance due . we are not the creditor and are not covered by the consumer credit act 2006. We are therefore not obliged to provide you with information such as a complaints procedure or the date the debt was acquired

 

please respond to the claim form with either an approiate adefence or an admission and offer of repayment faliure to so will result in judgment being entered without reference to you.

 

i sent cpr request to h.choen should i have sent them to cl finance ?

 

what do i do now?

 

your help would be most appreciated

[babybear39]

*bump*

[tiglet]

Oh dear, this is a little naughty.

 

Firstly, IMO, the CCA 2006 is irrelevant in this case - you are asking for disclosure under the civil procedural rules. This has nothing whatsoever to do with complaints procedures etc - it is to enable you to enter a correct defence.

 

Now, it's interesting that you sent this to the solicitors and they have said it's nothing to do with them, it's up to the client - surely they are the one's representing the client in this action?

 

Again, a kind legal bod will pop along I'm sure to give you the ins and outs of how to deal with this

[master woody]

I had the same thing, it complete BS and good news

 

why not send the documents if they had them??????

 

 

I phone Cohen, the nice lady told me they were try to obtain the relevent docs as

 

" we don't be able to contine without them"

[42man]

Have a good read of this thread....i'm trying to find the defence required....it is pathetic if they haven't provided the documents, they have a clear duty to provide you with exactly what you asked for, otherwise their claim will get thrown out !!!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/126111-cl-finance-ltd-recieved.html?highlight=defence

[42man]

ok this is another very good thread to read. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/122165-help-received-court-claim.html?highlight=embarrassed If they don't produce the documents this is usually the sort of defence filed (obviously yours will me different but this should give you the idea)

 

Reproduced courtesy of PT2537

 

In the xxxxxxxx County Court

Claim number

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx- Claimant

 

and

 

 

- Defendant

 

 

 

 

Defence

 

1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

2. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

3. I am embarrassed at pleading to the particulars as they fail to comply with the Civil procedure rules, in particular part 16 and practice direction 16, in particular paragraph 7.3 as the claimant has failed to supply a copy of the written document which forms the basis of this claim

 

4. The claimant has failed to set out how the figures which they claim are calculated nor do they set out the nature and scope of any charges contained within the figure claimed

 

5. The claimant has failed to also attach a copy of the default notice which they claim has been served under s87 (1) Consumer credit act 1974

 

6. The courts powers of enforcement in cases relating to Regulated Credit Agreements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 are subject to certain qualifications being met with regards to the form and content of the documentation, in particular the Credit agreement and the Default notice. Therefore these Documents must be produced before the court and must comply with the relevant sections of the consumer credit act and the regulations made under the act, I will address these requirements later in this defence

 

7. Further more the claimant has failed to attach a copy of the deed of assignment and proof of posting for the notice of assignment which is required to comply with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925. I received the Notice of assignment, on the 3rd December 2007 and I note the date of issue on the claim as the 26th November 2007 which suggests that the notice of assignment, which must be served before the assignment is effective in law, was not posted before the claim was filed, so I place the claimant to strict proof that the notice of assignment was posted prior to the start of this action. Should the claimant not be able to produce this proof, I contend that the claimant would not have a legal right to this action and the case should be struck out without further notice

 

8. Consequently due to the claimants failure to supply the documents required under the civil procedure rules and the fact that the claimant has failed to sufficiently particularized the claim I deny all allegations in the particulars of claim that I am indebted to the claimant in any way an put the claimant to strict proof thereof

 

9. I will now look at the important issues relating to this case which must be brought to the courts attention

 

 

Pre-action protocols

 

10. The claimant xxxxxxxxxx has failed to follow the pre-action protocols insofar as they did not send any letter before action as required by paragraph 4.3 of Practice Direction-Protocols, nor did they attempt to enter into any negotiations to try and resolve the issues. Instead they launched immediate litigation and it would appear they even did this before the assignment was carried out correctly, I had tried to enter into negotiations with the claimant to avoid the necessity of this action but all attempts were rebuffed

 

11. The assignor GE Capital had refused my attempts to resolve this, I had offered to pay £80 per month towards this debt and the claimant refused this offer, which I feel was completely unreasonable. At this point, due to these proceedings such offer must not be viewed as an admission of any liabilities for the debt and was made purely on a without prejudice basis

 

The Request for Disclosure

 

12. Further to the case, on xx/xx/2007 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the Notice of Assignment required to give the claimant a legitimate right of action.

 

13. To Date the claimant has ignored my request under the CPR and I have not received any such documentation requested. As a result it has proven difficult to compose this defence without disclosure of the information requested, especially given that I am Litigant in Person

 

14. The claimant is therefore put to strict proof that a document which is legible and Compliant with the Consumer Credit Act and subsequent Regulations made under the Act exists

 

 

The Credit Agreement

 

 

15. The Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim relates to a Credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Under the said act there are certain conditions laid down by parliament which must be complied with if such agreement is to be enforced by the courts

 

16. Firstly, the agreement must contain certain terms under regulations made by the Secretary of State under section 60(1) CCA 1974, the regulations referred to are the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)

 

17. The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1. Number of repayments;

2. Amount of repayments;

3. Frequency and timing of repayments;

4. Dates of repayments;

5. The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

18. If the agreement does not contain these terms it does not comply with section 60(1) CCA 1974, the consequences of which means it is improperly executed and only enforceable by court order

19. Notwithstanding point 18, The agreement must be signed in the prescribed manner to comply with s61 (1) CCA 1974, if the agreement is not signed by debtor or creditor it is also improperly executed and again only enforceable by court order

 

20. The courts powers of enforcement where agreements are improperly executed by way of section 65 CCA 1974 are themselves subject to certain qualifying factors. Under section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the requirements are laid out clearly what is required for the court to be able to enforce the agreement where section 65(1) has not been complied with

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

21. The courts attention is also drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482) the agreement cannot be enforced

 

22. With regards to the Authority cited in point 21, I refer to LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD in the House of Lords Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) paragraph 29

 

" The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order."

 

23. Therefore it is submitted that without production of the credit agreement no enforcement order should be made as this would be unjust and against the rulings of the House of Lords and also against the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which was enacted clearly to offer a certain level of protection to consumers

 

 

The Default Notice

 

24. Notwithstanding the matters pleaded above, the claimant must under section 87(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 serve a default notice before they can demand payment under a regulated credit agreement

 

25. It is neither admitted or denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant

 

26. Notwithstanding point 25, I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)

 

27. Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but give me a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

The Assignment of the debt

 

28. As stated in point 7, the notice of assignment was delivered to me on the 3rd December 2007 after the claimant had instigated this action, consequently, I require the claimant produce the Deed of Assignment to show that it is indeed valid and compliant with the Law of Property Act 1925 and further more I require the claimant disclose proof of posting per s196 LoP Act 1925

 

29. I refer to W F Harrison & Co Ltd v Burke and another - [1956] 2 All ER 169 where it was held that the notice of assignment was bad because the date of the assignment was wrongly stated therein and, therefore, the legal right to the debt under the hire-purchase agreement had not been assigned effectually at law within s 136(1) a of the Law of Property Act, 1925 and put the claimant to strict proof that the assignment has been carried out correctly

 

30. If no Deed of Assignment can be produced it is requested that the court strike out the claimants case as the claimant will not have a right to bring this action against me in their name

 

Conclusion

 

31. I respectfully ask the court to use its case management powers to order the claimant to disclose the information requested within this defence document as it is vital to allow me the opportunity to defend this action properly and would be unjust and totally unfair to allow this action to continue without allowing me the opportunity to view the documents which form the basis of this claim

 

32. I further ask the court consider striking out the claimants case as it fails to comply with part 16 and practice direction 16 insofar that no documents have been supplied and fails to show any consideration to the overriding objective to allow the court to deal with this case justly

 

33. In addition, if the claimant cannot produce a credit agreement in the prescribed form signed in the prescribed manner by debtor and creditor, the court is precluded from making an enforcement order under s127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and it is requested that the court use its powers under section 142 Consumer Credit Act 1974 to declare the agreement unenforceable and strike out the claimants case accordingly

 

34. Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in point 12 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

 

35. In addition it is drawn to the courts attention that schedule 3, s11 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 prevents s15 repealing s127 (3) of the 1974 Act for agreements made before s15 came into effect since the agreement is alleged to have commenced in xx/xx/xxx the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is the relevant act in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I xxxxxxxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................

 

Date

[la23hin]

thank you for your help once again,i have read both thread suggested by 42man and they have give me great hope it seems its going to be a very long battle, just hope i can keep up and not given to early, when should i send my deffence in, the court told me i had till the 7th april. Should i wait till nearer the date to leave them guessing whether i will file a defence, also h.choen said they do not have give me any details from the cpr i sent them, should i have sent it to cl finance instead if so shall i send it to cl finance special delivery tommorrow

 

hope this makes sense

 

thankyou

[Goldlady]

Subscribing as I have three claims on the go with CL Finance - one has been withdrawn, the second they have not filed an allocation questionnaire and it is about to be kicked out (not the proper terminology) by the court and the third is ongoing but I have asked the court to strike out their claim as they have not supplied information needed for the defence. All GE storecards, all passed to CL Finance and all via Cohens.

[myalterego]

Hi ...anyone help

 

regarding this thread

I had a gec storecard

 

got into difficulties last year...asked for a freeze on account...but unknown to me I was ccj`d in late november...out of blue in January, I received a letter from cohen/re cl finance regarding CCJ

 

First of all ...got in touch in with court...got a n244 which I`m about to submit anytime now...in the meantime...cca`d cohen...and yes ...CCA came back with my signature...then I cpred them...as I`m willing to pay the debt...but not the scandalous charges...as I now want a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) from someone regarding the charges...do I send SAR to GEC For my defence...or SAR cohen...if I SAR GEC ...Is there a letter I can send Cohen in the meantime to let them know I will be defending against outrageous charges in court...?

[la23hin]

hi can anyone advise on post 19 please

 

thanks

[42man]

If it was me I would file the defence at the last possible moment (but obviously keeping within the timescale) As the solicitors will panic and rush to get the relevant items (if they exist and are correct)....as long as you stick to the principles (and you are learning all the time from the excellent information on here) Don't forget that Cohen are the ones who will appear at court (or at least one of their local agents)....by that time you will know the law, and get it thrown out !!! be strong, and know your stuff !!!

Also if Cohen's have said they do not have to provide the information...well actually they do !!! how are you supposed to file a defence !!! (did they indicate this in writing ? - if they did keep it and show it to the judge) it is almost an abuse of process on their part !!!...As you can see in Point 3 in the defence above....

"3. I am embarrassed at pleading to the particulars as they fail to comply with the Civil procedure rules, in particular part 16 and practice direction 16, in particular paragraph 7.3 as the claimant has failed to supply a copy of the written document which forms the basis of this claim"

 

This says it all.....and don't forget to ask for costs too !!!

[42man]

Also Myalterego can you update your thread with what you have said above it is here...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/132570-ccj-n244-ex160a-hel.html

[la23hin]

thankyou

 

could h.choen still send me the docs requested or could they just turn up in court with them and not let me see them and maske me look stupid