Storage charge.

[waterbottle]

When we moven into our property in September we found that a large amount of items had been left behind by previous inhabitants. Our inventory ran to 62 pages and this didn't cover everything. We have suffered myriad problems since then with this culminating in the agents attempting to force entry into the property. I have informed the police. Whilst there are many issues, my main concern at present is:

 

Can we deduct an amount from the rent to cover the catalogue, boxing and storing of these items?

 

On our contract it states that the landlord can charge a fee for storage and disposal of property left behind by us. I seem to remember the term 'reciprosity of contract' from the banking charges stuff. Does this mean that we can apply this charge to him in a similar way during our tenancy?

 

I should just point out that, before we moved in we asked for a bed to be removed and for 'some of the ornaments' to be removed. When we moved in this bed was stored under our bed and even more ornaments had been moved in; hence the 62 page inventory. In addition, almost all the cupboards were filled with useless tat, from bedding to cardboard boxes of trinkets. Most of this was not inventoried. To give an indication of the scale of the problem, half empty bottles of booze and (rotting) food in the cupboards and fridge were inventoried. This clutter is stored in the second bedroom and takes up about half of the space. More is in cupboards and drawers.

 

Should i threaten to bin it? We were not present at the inventory and so signed nothing.

 

The agents said the flat was sold as seen. After four months we gave up and withheld rent. In addition there have been a huge number of other problems with the flat. A section 8 has now been issued because of rent arrears. I was hoping for guidance on how a judge would see this.

 

This may well be a long and intricate dispute and I could really use the help of people who have experience. The stress is making me crazy.

 

Many thanks to all who even read this far.

[Steve__M]

Putting things like rotting food in the inventory is (I assume) more for your protection - so you can't be charged for cleaning if the fridge isn't spotless when you leave.

 

I rented a furnished house with vast amounts of crockery and tat. As far as I could see, if you've taken the house with everything in it then it is your duty to look after the stuff. If you want it out of the house you have to negotiate. In my case we persuaded the agent to store a lot of stuff, but it wasn't great having responsibility of all that was left.

 

From what you say, I get the feeling that the problems you are having have gone beyond the complaint about the tat. Whatever led the agents to try to break in?

 

On the one hand you've not said anything that appears to justify not paying rent. On the other I'm pretty sure that attempting to break in is not a good move with regards to trying to enforce a Section 8. Others are more qualified to advise, but again, I suspect there is more to the story.

[waterbottle]

Thank you for your reply Steve M. You are right that there are other issues that haven't been addressed. The place was dirty when we moved in and lots of things were broken.

 

The agents tried to force their was in because they are Foxtons. Their motto is 'we are prepared to go to war for our customers', and they informed me of their intention to inspect. I pointed out that I required reasonable notice before they were given access. They came anyway; shouted outside the door for almost 50 minutes, after I had called the police non emergency line. Then they tried to let themselves in and we got into a pushing war with the front door. I called 999. They agents went away but came back to the flat escorted by the police. Then the police claimed that no crime had been commited. I read up and found this to be untrue and have written to them but received no response. Foxtons are Nazis.

 

However, what I really need is authorative advice regarding the concept of 'reciprocity of contract'. As a concept, it has been mentioned on the bank charges threads. I think that when renting a furnished house one has the right to expect that cupboards ane not full of clutter. There must be a reasonable amount of items in a house. The LL won't take the stuff away so we are stuck with a mound of junk in the second bedroom.

 

In the contract, they can charge storage and disposal for items, and rent is still payable after we've left when furniture is left behind in the flat. Can we do any of this to them for leaving so much clutter and bits of furniture behind?

 

Many thanks to anyone who replies.

[waterbottle]

Can anyone help me with this?

 

To clarify, what I want to know is:

 

Given that my contract says that, after I leave, the landlord can

 

i) charge me for storage and disposal of everything I leave behind

ii)charge me rent if I leave furniture behind

 

Can I do the same to him if he leaves stuff in the flat which inconveniences me? For example furniture that I asked to be removed and clutter that is unreasonably left and deprives me of storage space. I would see this as charging him a limited rent for the space he occupies. Is this known as reciprocity and mutuality or something else? More importantly, is it a sound legal argument?

 

Please help as I can't afford a solicitor and we are still living out of boxes!

[waterbottle]

Can anyone recommend a knowledgable poster to ask as I am struggling here?

[Esio Trot]

In the current climate, the Inventory is God.

 

If the above items are not on the inventory, get rid.

 

Should the previous inhabitant arrive and demand their stuff back, it will be the landlord (through the agent if one was used) who will be liable.

 

Think of contract law and the parties involved.

 

Seems to me that you are worrying too much about this - just act.

[Esio Trot]

... before we moved in we asked for a bed to be removed and for 'some of the ornaments' to be removed. When we moved in this bed was stored under our bed and even more ornaments had been moved in; hence the 62 page inventory. In addition, almost all the cupboards were filled with useless tat, from bedding to cardboard boxes of trinkets. Most of this was not inventoried. To give an indication of the scale of the problem, half empty bottles of booze and (rotting) food in the cupboards and fridge were inventoried.

 

Looks like you may have shot yourself in the foot.

 

As you didn't get a chance to approve the inventory before moving in, it would be reasonable for you to respond within 7 days of occupation on issues to do with the inventory.

 

It sounds like you didn't. Thus the inventory stands (though not for the rotting food I would have thought).

 

As I wrote in my previous post, study the inventory and get rid of anything not listed. You will have a problem with items listed though.

[waterbottle]

No one has signed the inventory though. We said we dispute it. They said 'what do you dispute.Send amended inventory'. We said we dispute the inventory. We weren't there for it and we didn't sign it. My housemate said she would send amended details. Then it became obvious that the whole thing was innacurate and I said 'use our complaints letters to asses failings in the inventory as to write a new one was too much of a job.

 

After that things broke down.

 

Surely there can be an amount of items in the flat that would be considered 'too much'. They didn't remove the ornaments that we specified as a condition on the agreement. They seem to have added more and filled cupboards with stuff.

 

Can I claim a rent reduction on this and other stuff. (Microwave soiled to the point of being impossible to clean, DVD player didn't work, loads of other stuff.) Basically we didn't get what we paid for and are living with the consequences of their laziness.

 

Does that make sense in light of the question about charging them rent for the space they are 'taking up'?

[ShortlyTdwarf]

As a landlord myself (and i think a very good one) I find the things being done by your agent to be disgusting, and to a degree illegal.

 

The amount of items in the flat are really irrelevant. The first thing to look at here is your tenancy. Does it state furnished or unfurnished? if it states unfurnished, then the inventory should not contain any furniture at all except that which is normally expected (ie cooker, fridge, carpets, blinds, etc)

 

However, that said, any inventory should really be done by an inventory clerk. Inventory clerks are the independent persons who will go through your property with a tooth comb and note everything. If the landlord prepares an inventory himself and the tenant disagrees with the inventory he /she may refuse to sign it.

You need an signature on the inventory to prove that it is valid.

 

An inventory clerk is a professional person who is qualified in that particular field.

 

In your particular case, since there has been no signature on your inventory by either yourself or the agent/landlord then the inventory is invalid. In this case I would recommend contacting your agents and telling them that their inventory is invalid and you will be removing any items that have been left in the property by the previous tenant on [give a date, but be realistic] and that if they wish to keep these items they will need to collect them prior to that date. Give them a reasonable amount of time to arrange this, say 14 calendar days(be specific, calendar or working). If they do respond then post their response on here, I'll subscribe to the thread to keep an eye out. This may be a starting point to open a new dialogue with them.

 

The issue you raised about charging them for storage is one that has not, to my knowledge, been tried. But, with no valid inventory it is feasable, IN THEORY! But you would have to prove ownership of the items first, and that could prove exceedingly hard, if not impossible.

 

As for the withholding of rent, this is probably not in your best interest as they have served you with a reposession notice. Although you can get them there too. Under the guidance, if they are attempting reposession due to rent arrears, if you make up the difference well in advance of the court date they can't continue. Guidance states "Two months (8 weeks) rent arrears exist both at the time of serving notice and on the day of the court hearing."

This is a MANDATORY condition of the notice and proceedings in court.

[waterbottle]

Excellent, thank you. That is just what I wanted to hear. I'll send them a note saying the inventory is invalid and that they need to collect their stuff or I will bin it and charge them.

 

For anyone interested I have written to the borough commander of the local police force. I have complained about the police's untrue statement about forcing entry not being a crime. I will let you know what reply I get. As there was some harassment I thought about claiming illegal eviction. As I understand it the crime is commited if they do anything which is intended to make me leave whether I leave or not.

 

If I pay the rent due before the court date and the judge finds partly in my favour for withholding fees who will be liable for costs? The LLs solicitors are claiming that it will be about £850. Harsh surely.

 

Anyway, I will keep posting everything here as it happens.

[waterbottle]

I forgot to say. It does say furnished but it doesn't say junk shop or jumble sale. The whole place is unbelieveably full and we made it a writen condition (we have a record) that ornaments must be removed. They acknowledge this but didn't do it and it was not included on our contract, yet the other conditions were. Other than that the place is rammed with loads of linen and other crap.

[ShortlyTdwarf]

What's this? Insomniacs anonymous? lol

 

If you pay the rent before the court date and keep it up to date then they have no grounds to seek possession for arrears. So it shouldn't go to court. They must keep an accurate record of all documentation, letters etc that have been sent, and when. This is in case they have to revert to possession under Grounds 10 and 11 (discretionary Grounds):

 

10. Some rent was due when the notice was served and at the date of the proceedings. 11. The tenant has been persistently late in paying the rent.

If the above don't apply then they cannot take it to court, and you won't be liable for any court costs. They must always ensure that the correct notice form is used otherwise the proceedings will be invalid. Keep the illegal eviction idea on the back burner for now. You can always come back to it at a later date. Incidentally, if you know the officers who attended or have their numbers it will help if you need to go this route. They will have had to write a detail of the call in their notebooks. Could be handy.

 

Be careful about how you word the letter about their invalid inventory. Just say you will have it removed from the property. You don't need to state where to, and I wouldn't bother sending them a bill, in light of the withheld rent. It may just cause more problems. Just get a house clearance company in to pick it all up free.

 

Just as a quick aside, if the property is furnished then they have a duty under The Furniture and Furnishings (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988 to ensure that the furniture complies with safety regulations. The regulations set levels of fire resistance for domestic upholstered furniture, furnishings and other upholstered products and act as secondary legislation under the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

 

All furnishings must under go 2 tests: match test and cigarette test. All furnishings must carry labelling as shown below, proving that they have undergone and passed the test.

 

The regulations apply to:

Beds, headboards, mattresses, sofa-beds, futons and other convertibles, nursery furniture, garden furniture, scatter cushions, seat pads, pillows, loose and stretch furniture coverings and other replacement furniture to be used in a rental property.

The regulations do not apply to:

Antique furniture and furniture made prior to 1950, bed clothes and duvets, pillow cases, curtains, carpets and sleeping bags.

 

Failure to comply can lead to a 6 month prison sentence or a fine of £5000

Just a little something to give you some bargaining power in the event that they try to say you have no right to remove the junk they left there.

Any problems with anything I've said then PM me and I'll write you up a quick letter for you to send them.

[waterbottle]

Thanks very much for the help. I have sent a letter off to the agents and the landlord. I will update when something happens.

 

Until then, any further input would be valued. Does the above mentioned act refer to dining chairs that have loose and flammable looking straw/wicker that functions as the seat base?

 

They have not got a valid Corgi certificate for the boiler and none of the paperwork/checklists that are necessary. We had 2 boiler breakdowns and subsequent short circuits at the beginning of the tenancy.

 

How can I bargain with these things effectively? 'Do what I ask or I'll report you?' Is there a better tactic than this?

 

One dodgy socket as well. I found the Plugs and Sockets etc. Act. One extension cord with uninsulated plug.

[ShortlyTdwarf]

Your bargaining power in respect of the things on the property that are dangerous is pretty much a "fixit or get done" one. But you don't have to actually mention that you will report them for the breaches. it's much better to just say that certain things are wrong or not up to legal standard, and that you think they should be put right as soon as possible, since you don't want the landlord to get into any trouble for things that break the law. If you make it sound like you are concerned about the landlord's legal position and are worried he may get fined, or worse, if the problems result in a fire or explosion or whatever then they will probably not even realise you are trying it on. Using the "my friend told me" and "he's a gas engineer/furniture salesman/electrician" reasons usually works quite well.

 

The boiler situatin is actually the worst. It should be done ASAP and conform to the regs or he could really get done hard, especially if something goes wrong.

 

Don't think you'll find that a dining chair with a wicker base counts. Fire regs usually focus on filling and covering materials. Wicker is classed as a form of wood, which isn't covered. Otherwise wicker units and cane furniture would be illegal.

[Esio Trot]

 

However, that said, any inventory should really be done by an inventory clerk. Inventory clerks are the independent persons who will go through your property with a tooth comb and note everything. If the landlord prepares an inventory himself and the tenant disagrees with the inventory he /she may refuse to sign it.

You need an signature on the inventory to prove that it is valid.

 

Whilst I agree with most of your post, the above sentence you kindly highlighted in red is desirable but too simplistic to say it is necessary for proof.

 

We took court action against a tenant who messed up a newly refurbished property and won - without a signed inventory. In this case the tenant was given two copies of the independent inventory when signing the TA (signing a receipt for the documentation). A covering letter explained that errors and omissions sometimes occur, and that any differences should be noted on the copies and one of them returned to us within seven days. Failure to return a copy would mean that the inventory is deemed correct.

 

The copy was not returned, and we wrote a reminder asking for it to be returned within a further seven days. Nothing arrived.

 

At the hearing the tenant said that the inventory was totally wrong and that there were stains, burns etc were there before occupation. In view of our procedure and documentation judgement was in our favour and the tenant was faced with having to pay £1,460.

[ShortlyTdwarf]

Yes you are probably right, it is an oversimplistic view, but one that can be used in a great many cases. If there never has been any form of inventory then the LL has no proof as to the state of the property when the tenant moved in, and there can be no comparison to the state when the tenant moves out. So why would a judge award the damages to the LL if he can't prove it?

 

I think that in a lot of cases where an inventory is present it will be up to the judge to decide on whether any signature, or lack thereof, is proof of the state of the property. I've been involved in court cases:

1. where we have had an inventory done and it was found to be proof that the damage had occurred during the tenancy which we won and

2. where, through a mistake of my own, an inventory had not been signed and returned and when we tried to claim against the tenant the judge decided in favour of the tenant due to lack of proof.

 

Looking at the case you specify, as you say, it was the paperwork you had to prove that the inventory was done and that not returning deemed the inventory correct that won you the case.

In my experience, I would always recommend any LL has an inventory done professionally, as I do now every time. The case i lost cost more than just the damage repairs.

 

In the case in this post I would say that the inventory that was done, whether it was signed or not, was somewhat overly detailed in that it included half empty bottles and rotting food.

Personally, I would challenge it's relevence in court due to the fact that it has been prepared by someone who is obviously incapable of preparing any form of valid inventory as can be seen by the amount and validity of the items included, and the fact that the inventory was disputed by the tenants prior to them agreeing to sign it, but the agents did not re-evaluate the contents of the inventory being disputed and did nothing about the tenant's complaints.

[waterbottle]

Sorry to be picky over the details here but:

 

Furniture is defined as:

 

items such as chairs, tables, beds, cupboards, etc. which are put into a house or other building to make it suitable and comfortable for living or working in:

 

Does this mean that almost anything would count as furniture? I realise the act has exemptions but 'shortlydwarf' also mentioned wood. Is this also exempted? The bases of our dining chairs are a sort of fine wicker which has been worn to a frayed fuzz at some points. 'Ideal kindling' in my opinion. It wouldn't pass any sort of match/cigarette test.

[waterbottle]

A problem with the inventory is that it was prepared by a professional inventory company. However, the agents state that they are liable for the cost of the inventory at the beginning of the tenancy and the tenants pay at the end. Our agents seem to be amoral psychopaths. I believe that they pay a reduced amount for the initial inventory and we pay a higher amount for the closing inventory. Otherwise, why should it be conducted this way? There may be a lack of neutrality when these two companies have a mutual interest. In short the inventory company won't rock the boat because the agent will then go elsewhere.

Does my point have any legal merit in this case? Everything about the agents seems v. dodgy but they are a big company in London.