Alan V Lloyds TSB Credit Card

[furnitman2003]

Hi All

I've been posting on various threads regarding my dispute with Lloyds.

I've decided to bring the main points of them together in a new thread to make things easier to follow and give an update:

 

Brief Summary of my Llyods TSB Credit Card Dispute over Penalty Charges

Data Protection Act Request sent 20th Sept 07, Recieved by Lloyds on 21st Sept 07,

Recieved Requested Statements 2nd Nov 07. ( a few days over the 40 days)

Sent Letter containing details of Penalty Charges and Late Payment Interest Applied and requesting a full Refund of both the charges and the Interest ( 314 charges and around 700 Late Payment Interest) on the 8th November 07

I was then advised that it would be better to Dispute the actual Credit Card Agreement, so I sent a CCA Request for a True and Signed copy of the alledged agreement on the 3rd January 08, I did not recieve the agreement with in 12 working days, and as of tomorrow (Fri. 22nd Feb 08, the one month deadline will have been breeched, still no agreement forthcoming. However, I did recieve a response to my request for a refund letter, offering me a Full Refund of Charges "in full and final settlement of my complaint" there was no mention of the Late Payment Interest, which I also wanted refunding.

My Question is this, If I accept the offer of a refund of charges would this affect my chances of disputing the whole agreement on the grounds of an unenforceable agreement, as, by accepting, would I be admitting that the debt is enforcible.

Any opinions greatly appreciated.

 

-------------------------------

 

The Card was opened in September 2001, the original credit limit was for 1000 pounds, raised to 1,200 in august 2002, I've since paid 1,234 + (595 pounds whilst account was within credit limit).

 

outstanding balance on account as of 12th Oct 07, 997,76 this is made up of 282.48 in unlawful charges, and Interest totaling 632.24 most of which was applied after the account was effectivly closed( credit limit set to 000.00) they refused to freeze interest

 

They are still adding Interest and charges, the balance now outstanding according to the latest default notice recieved today ( 21st Feb 08 ) is 1,067 pounds and 55 pounds arrears as I have refused to pay any more (until I recieve the CCA agreement)

 

The Charges now stand at 314 pounds which they have offered to refund.

 

If you want more details I am currently compilling an exact Time-line regarding details Letters amounts Payments ect. ready to send to FOS, Trading Standards and OFT. And will gladly post them.

Alan

-----------------------------------

I Phoned Lloyds Today (21st Feb 08) to ask them outright why they are still sending me default notices as the account is in dispute, they said "we can see from our records that your account is being delt with by our customer relations dept. so ignore the default notice and any other letters you may recieve as they are generated automaticaly". I told them that as they are recording this call to put a note on the system that you, Ravi ( the guy I was speaking to) have told me to ignore the default notice. I have also made a note of the call ( Just in case, I don't trust them )

-----------------------------------

I Have just recieved a Final Response letter from Lloyds offering me a full refund of charges amounting to 314.00.

No mention of the CCA request, or the interest I wanted waived.

Just an acceptance slip to accept their offer in final settlement of my complaint, and the option of pursuing it further with the FSO if I am not happy.

I have one month to accept their offer, however they have less than that to comply with my CCA request.

I'm in two minds as to wether to hold out and see if the agreement is forthcoming or accept their offer and arrange to pay off the outstanding balance/Interest all be it grudgingly.

Opinions would be welcome

 

Update

 

Sent Lloyds a Letter on the 25th Feb 08, accepting their offer of a refund but only as a partial offer of settlement, stating that I do not accept the offer in full and final settlement.

And also informed them that they have not complied with my CCA Request, therefore, as of the 22nd Feb 08, they are now committing a criminal offence.

---------------

 

Its now a waiting game to see what they come up with next

Any views greatly appreciated

PS Thanks to all who have helped me with thier advise, could not have got this far with out it.

[citizenB]

bumping for you

[Brassed off]

No wonder they're offering you a refund Alan. From the sound of it, they don't have the Agreement.

 

Personally, I would hold fire until you receive the CCA. If they can't provide you with a fully enforceable agreement, they've got no chance (they probably know this already, hence the offer of a partial refund )

 

Obviously, there is little point in accepting their offer until they produce the Agreement.

 

If they do produce a fully enforceable CCA, then that would be the time to agree to a partial refund and then perhaps offer a F&FS on the balance outstanding.

 

 

Bo

 

PS - If you do receive the CCA, please post it up so that the experts on here can give you an opinion on its enforceability.

[furnitman2003]

Hi All, Lloyds have sent me something, at last.

It was sent in a hand written addressed envelope with just a 'with Compliments' slip with it, No Letter or anything.

I cant scan it, as for some reason the scaner wont work with my computer ( Windows 98 operating system, Installation disc wont install it).

 

Any way I'll try to discribe it.

 

Two Pages.

 

First Page

 

Asset Application Form and Agreement

 

Credit Agreement Regulated By The Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

seller id 2541055 selling branch sort code 309321

Signature for Lloyds TSB Bank plc Gimm y-- nil Date 7-11-01

 

1 Choice of Card Visa

 

2 Your Personal Details My details

 

3 Your Financial Details My Bank Details

 

4 Your Employment Details Self Employed

 

5 Your Additional Cardholder ------------

 

6 Optional features Ticked Yes for Asset Payment Protection

 

Your declaration and authorisation I Signed but no Date in Date box

 

 

Second Page

 

Lloyds Tsb Bank Credit Card Condition - Bank Copy

 

Information for lloyds TSB credit card customers who have existing Sopecial Balances and converting to Asset

 

These conditions are effective from 1 September 2001

 

Credit Agreement Regulated ETC

Parties To the Agreement: ETC

 

3 Lost and Misused Cards And Cheques

 

4 Main Financial Particulars

Credit Limit (see also conditions 5(f) and (g))

a) We will set and notify you of a credit limit. We may change the credit limit from time to time, and we will notify you.

 

Charges (see also condition 9 for default charges)

b) There is a charge of 2%(minimum £2) for cash withdrawals, and for each cheque (-------etc)

 

Your Payments (see also condition 7)

c) Statements will show the minimum you you must pay and the payment date.(------etc)

d) The Minimum payment is the larger of £5 or 2% of the ordinary balance(----etc)

e) We may sometimes let you know that you may omit a monthly payment.(------etc)

 

Variations (see also condition 11)

f) We may change the interest rates, charges and your payments. This includes changing the basis on which they are charged or calculated, or introducing new interest charges (------etc)

 

Rates of Interest and APRs (condition6 tells you when and how interest is charged)

g) All these interest rates are variable. The APRs below do not take any variation into account.

h) Our current rates are:

{The box containing these figures only show the headings, the actual figures are missing (did not copy properly)}

Interest on ordinary Balance - Monthly rate - APR on Purchases - APR on cash

 

 

Important- you should read this carefully

Your Rights

The Consumer Credit Act (-----etc)

 

 

YOUR PERSONAL DATA AND LLOYDS TSB

 

a) you agree that we may keep personal details (----etc

b) you agree that insurance or credit referenceagencies (---etc)

c) We may disclose details of how you have run your account (---etc)

 

Thats It,

Various sections refer to 'see conditions' , there was no condition enclosed with this Application form/Agreement

Any Views welcome

 

Alan

[Curlyben]

Can you take a photo of it and post that.

Now there's some things you will need to check.

The most important being the prescribed terms that make any credit agreement enforceable:

 

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/103383-agreement-enforceability.html

 

For a card the limit maybe a simple statement of how they work it out, but the other terms have to be stated.

[furnitman2003]

Hi I have photograped the two pages Lloyds sent me, here are the links to the two pages, I hope it works, I've never used photo bucket or even uploaded photo's on a computer before.

 

Hows That

Alan

[Brassed off]

They're really unclear my friend. You need the IMG code (fourth one down)., Just click on the IMG code to highlight it, right click, then copy and paste onto your thread

[furnitman2003]

Hi Their still unclear ain't they I'll have to get my Scanner sorted out

thanks for the tip though,

Alan

[Brassed off]

Yep, although I must admit the first thing that I've noticed at this time of night is "Application Form"

 

Have a look at the following ("borrowed" from Curlyben) :-

 

Prescribed terms:-

 

Now there's some things you will need to check.

The most important being the prescribed terms that make any credit agreement enforceable:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8.1 What are ‘prescribed terms’?

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

* amount of credit – see Q8.

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

 

Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: Agreement Enforceability

For a card the limit maybe a simple statement of how they work it out, but the other terms have to be stated.

[furnitman2003]

Update

While waiting for Lloyds to comply with my CCA request (made on 3rd Jan 08) I decided to accept their offer of a full refund of the £314 charges ( which I had requested to be refunded, before I made the CCA request ) but made it clear in the letter, sent 25th Feb 08, that it is not in full and final settlement as my dispute has not been resolved. I also stated in the letter that Lloyds have still not complied with my CCA request and as of 22nd of Feb 08 they are now committing a criminal offence.

 

Despite Lloyds eventually sending me the alledged true copy of the credit agreement (which I still believe to be just an application and which I recieved on the 13th March 08, Thirteen days over the '12 days+one month' deadline). I recieved a letter today from their Solicitors, Sechiari, Clark & Mitchell informing me that they are instructed by Lloyds that despite several reminders including the issue of a Default notice my account still remains out of order, "This Letter, therefore, makes a Formal demand on you to repay the account dalance as quoted above." (which is now £1,101. ) The Letter also goes on to say that "you should , however, be aware that interest continues to accrue on a daily basis.

 

I have decided to take up the whole issue with the FOS, and, if and when Lloyds take the matter to court, I feel I have enough 'amunition' to take them on,

Alan

[Fred Bassett]

I'm watching this with interest as your 'application' is pretty much identical to mine.

 

Good luck.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Night Owl]

Watching with interest furnitman2003.

I have just sent Lloyds my CCA request and they have till 8/04/08 to reply (the first 12 days).

I think they may have trouble finding one as i think it may go back 15+ years!!!

Good luck.

Night Owl

[RoyalNelly]

I'm following this as well as it would seem that my application form is of a similar type. Good Luck.

 

RN

[Fred Bassett]

I'm following this as well as it would seem that my application form is of a similar type. Good Luck.

 

RN

 

Hi RN, have you got a thread that I could follow too?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[RoyalNelly]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/137003-lloyds-tsb-cc-cca.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/136723-royalnelly-lloyds-tsb-platinum.html

[Fred Bassett]

Ta.

[furnitman2003]

UPDATE, The Story so Far.Hi allI still have had no response to my Letter sent to Lloyds on the 3rd April, (In which I Challenged them that what they sent me is just an application and not an enforceable Agreement, and that what they sent me is all they can now rely on if it goes to court,).MHA collections have stopped contacting me however I am now recieving calls and letters from BLS Collections of Oxford. I recieved one on Sunday afternoon(22nd June) I was out. So rang them Monday and told them I will not discuss it with them as account is in dispute, they offered to reduce balance by £600 pound, I told them to put anything they have to say in writting as I am now going via the FOS route and compiling a complaint to the OFT. I then recieved this Letter today (Tue. 24th) from BLS Collections:-Dear Mr xxxxxWe have been instructed by our client, Lloyds TSB Bank Plc, to recover the balance due of £1.169 under their reference number 43---------We would advise you to make telephone contact immediately with your proposal to clear the debt.Falure to do so may force us to make contact by telephone or advise Lloyds Tsb Bank to consider whether a personal vist is required.If you wish to make a payment today using either your Debit or Credit Card then please contact us on the above telephone number.Your sincerelyBLS CollectionsCollections DepartmentYet another In-house department of Lloyds I Believe.I'm Getting just a little bit P-----d off with them nowparticularly in view af the fact that when I did ring back following on of the phonecalls, they would not discuss details about the account unless I signed up for Phone Banking and had a password in place. what a Joke.By the way, They are still adding Interest and Charges to the accountIt is now obvious that I'm not going to get a 'final responce' to my earlier letter.As it's gone beyond the 'Charges' issue, and the dispute is based on CCA unenforceable agreement, I'm not quite sure what to do now, apart from persuing it with the FOS.Any thoughts anyone?Alan

[citizenB]

Hi Alan,

 

It would be nice if you could have included some paragraphs in your post above. It makes it very difficult to read when there is just one solid block of text.

 

There is no point in telephoning these cretins, they will just tie you up in jargon and fibs.

 

If you have advised them you are going the FOS/trading standards route, then do it. You will be given a reference number from both these places and you can then just respond to LTSB and their fan clubs with the 'This matter is now in the hands of FOS/TS' Any communications you now send me will be passed on to them and add the reference number.

 

Have you sent them the telephone harrassment letters and I do not want you to visit me letters from the template section of the forum. If not, send them out.

 

You can also request from LSTB , BLS and MHA (or whoever else bothers you) details of their complaints procedures and then make a formal complaint. What you really need before going down the FOS route is a Final Response Letter, however if you dont get one.. You can just add a letter when you do complain to FOS saying the company involved has refused to send details of their complaints procedure.

 

HTH

[furnitman2003]

Thanks for that.

The Text was in paragraphs when I typed it into 'Wordpad', but when I copied and pasted it into the reply it came out as a block, I should have typed straight into the reply, sorry.

I have sent them the Harrassment by phone letter, but not the Visit me Letter, will get it sent off asap

Thanks again for your help.

Alan

[citizenB]

Ah I see, yes Wordpad is notorious for removing paragraphs.

 

I would also request the complaints procedures of LTSB and BLS (who as you rightly say are part of LTSB anyway) It is good to show TS and FOS that YOU have followed procedures even if the almighty banks cant be bothered to.

[furnitman2003]

Just to clarify

This is the last letter I sent to Lloyds, and the one I am still awaiting a response to.

To

Lloyds TSB

25 Gresham Street

London

EC2V 7HN

2nd April 2008

Re: Your Response to my CCA Request. (Made by myself, on 3rd January 2008 and recieved by you on the 4th January 2008) which you sent to me in a plain brown, hand written, addressed envelope, without so much as a covering letter apologising for the delay.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Account number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 8726

 

I am in receipt of your 'letter', which I recieved on Thursday 13th March 2008, the contents of which are noted.

 

Thank you for sending me what you have confirmed to be a true copy of the credit agreement that exist in relation to this account. As you have sent this document in response to my requests under Section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then this statement by you is now binding on you as per section 172 of the Act.

 

Section 172 states:

 

172 Statements by creditor or owner to be binding

 

(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under-

 

section 77(1),

 

section 78(1),

 

section 79(1),

 

section 97(1),

 

section 107(1)©,

 

section 108(1)©, or

 

section 109(1)©.

 

This means that the document you have sent is the only document you may now rely on in any attempt at enforcing these alleged debts. Any further documentation you may present is irrelevant as you did not provide it in response to my lawful request.

I maintain that these alleged debts are completely unenforceable under Section 127 of the CCA 1974. The CCA 1974 is clear on what agreements must contain in order to be enforceable, even in court. For full details I refer you to the excellent guidance from the Office of Fair Trading.

 

For cancellable agreements, you can find the guidance at:

For non-cancellable agreements, you can find the guidance at:

For your further convenience, I also refer you to the guidance on Debt Collection here:

Page 1 of 2

 

At the very least, an agreement must contain the following within the signature document to be enforceable, even in court:

A credit limit or a statement as to how this will be determined.

An APR.

A schedule of repayments.

These are the prescribed terms as required by the Act and subsequent Regulations. There are also many other things, which are called required terms, that should be in an agreement. These include:

Details of default charges.

Statements of protection for customers.

The agreement you have sent me fails to include all of the information needed to make it enforceable, and therefore it is completely unenforceable under Section 127 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. For your information, you can find a copy of the CCA 1974 here:

 

 

I am aware that Section 127 was repealed in the Consumer Credit Act 2006 but this is not retrospective and applies only to agreements signed after 6th April 2007. For information on this, you can see the 2006 Act here:

 

 

I refer you particularly to the Transitional Provisions outlined in Schedule 3 which confirm that the repeal of Section 127 is NOT retrospective.

 

You deny that the document you have sent me fails to comply with the CCA 1974. In that case, given the FACTS I have outlined above, perhaps you could direct me to all of the prescribed and required terms in the agreement you have sent me. I think you will find that they are not there.

 

Once you have confirmed for yourself that they are not there, perhaps you would be so kind as to point me in the direction of the relevant legislation that allows you to enforce an agreement that is clearly unenforceable under Section 127. Again, I think you will find that this legislation does not exist.

 

The case law in these matters is clear. The case of Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry makes it clear that if a creditor does not have the correct paperwork to comply with the CCA 1974, then they cannot expect to benefit from this. Under these circumstances, the creditor loses all rights within the agreement, including the right to money already given out. You can find the full judgement of this case here:

 

 

Once again, I challenge you to give me an example of case law that supports your view that you may continue to seek to enforce an unenforceable agreement. At the risk of repeating myself, I think you will find that there is none.

 

In light of all of this information I have given you, I do not see how you can possibly maintain that this agreement is enforceable. Should you wish to try and construct a case (that has a basis in law) then I would be most interested to read it.

 

If you cannot construct such a case, I expect you to confirm (within 21 days) that all collections activity on this account will cease.

 

I await your response with interest.

 

Yours sincerely

Mr A R xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Page 2 of 2

Alan

[citizenB]

Hmmm, to be honest you could probably wait until hell freezes over before you get an answer to your letter. You have pointed out all the legalities required and they obviously cant refute that.

 

You really need the help of one of the more experience CAGers to advise you.

 

Meanwhile if you get any other letters from the 'heavy squad' just write back and say this account is in dispute.

 

LTSB cant produce a copy of anything in my case.. even a poor copy of an application form !. I have just written back and said, if LTSB want to chance their luck in a court of law without a compliant agreement, then please, please take me to court . I havent heard anything back yet.

[furnitman2003]

Update

Sent this

Hi

I've sent this 'Home Visit' letter today (monday). ammended slightly. (see below)

also enclosed letter BLS sent ( threatening visit ) also

enclosed copy of original 'Harassment letter' sent back in January 08

lets see if that stops the calls,

Incidently I had another call Friday, I was out, message left,

"This is for Mr Alan C_________ (First name terms, I don't think so) please ring to discuss a business matter" No chance!

----------------

To

 

Lloyds TSB

25 Gresham Street

London

EC2V 7HN

 

30th June 2008

 

Re: Credit Card Account. ---- ---- ---- ----

BLS Collections Ref. Number ------------

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing. I have noted your repeated attempts to contact me, yourselves and via your internal 'Collection' departments namely MHA Collections and in particular BLS Collections by telephone over the past few weeks/months most of which have been duly logged by time and date.

 

Be advised that you have already recieved an 'Harassment by telephone' letter dated 27th January 2008. ( I have enclosed a copy of that letter for your attention, take note, the contents of that letter also applies to your internal collection departments whatever they choose to call themselves).

In view of the fact you have chose to ignore it, I am now informing you that your continued harassment of me by telephone has put you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. You are also in breach of the Wireless Telegraphy Act (1949).

Therefore, as you were warned, you have left me no option than to send a report to both Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading,

 

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, or in the words of BLS Collections a personal visit, ( I take that to mean a Home Visit), please see enclosed copy of the letter from BLS, (I've circled the relevent 'threat'). Please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you. or anyone acting on your behalf.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

Yours faithfully

 

A R C--------

-----------------------------

Ive also phoned Trading Standards who put me through to Consumer Direct, They have given me a Ref.Number,The Oft are sending me a Complaint Form, as I could not find on on their Site.Alan

Edited June 30, 2008 by furnitman2003
additional info

[citizenB]

With any luck there might be someone at LSTB who can read Apart from that it reads ok Alan.

 

Is that their registered office you are writing to?

[furnitman2003]

Yes, I'ts Their head office, Lloyds have so many different departments, that whichever dept. you right to they could write back and say 'we don't deal with this, you need to write to....' This way head office have (or should) pass it to the relevant dept., let them do the work why should we

Alan