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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Going on the sick so she can go on holiday!!!


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Could anyone give me some advice please. My sister in law works in a School and has been refused a holiday out of school time.

 

She says she will go on the sick and go anyway.

 

Is it right that you are not allowed out of the country whilst claiming sick pay.

 

I have also heard you can go abroad but not out of the EU.

 

The holiday is to Egypt a week before the school breaks for summer.

 

Can anyone clarify this matter

 

Tracy:)

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There are no rules (that I have ever heard of) which prevent her from going anywhere in the world whilst off sick, as it is not neccessarily the case that the condition preventing you from working would also prevent you from travelling. Similarly, if she had two different jobs, she could not neccessarily be disciplined for going sick from one job whilst remaining in work at the other one.

 

It is all about credibility. If she is claiming to be unable to work as she cannot move from her sick bed then quite rightfully the employer would be questioning a miraculous recovery to the extent where she could travel on an aeroplane yet had not recovered sufficiently to attend work. If however she had strained ankle ligaments (for example) which would prevent her from standing for extended periods and there was no alternative arrangement possible to permit her to work, this would not automatically be a barrier to travelling and resting the ankle whilst lying on a sun lounger!

 

She will undoubtedly cause suspicion, having already asked for and been refused the time off, and your sister in law should be aware that being signed off sick does not mean that she cannot be disciplined or even dismissed if it is done properly.

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likewise edu too.

 

there are NO rules of any LEA that i know that are enforceable, unless it is specifically written into the contract or local agreement.

MOST schools etc, have wording along the lines of 'at your line managers discretion', but its not sackable if you do.

 

dont do a sickie, that will be on dodgy ground.

 

best bet is to either go to the head or pointout that it is not 'a contract rule' and that you cannot avoid such a 'special' holiday.

 

negotiate rather that do a dalek!

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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As said, there is no rule regarding sick pay and where you are when you collect it. The sick note a GP writes is to say in his opinion you ar eunfit to work, an employer can choose to accept or decline this, if however they decline they would be wise to seek independent advice.

However, going sick on a requested and not granted holiday date coudl easily be viewed as a disciplinary offence. Perhaps it is prudent to ensure you are able to take holiday from employment before booking holiday ?

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Could anyone give me some advice please. My sister in law works in a School and has been refused a holiday out of school time.

 

She says she will go on the sick and go anyway.

 

Is it right that you are not allowed out of the country whilst claiming sick pay.

 

I have also heard you can go abroad but not out of the EU.

 

The holiday is to Egypt a week before the school breaks for summer.

 

Can anyone clarify this matter

 

Tracy:)

 

Can you clarify first?

 

Is it in school time or not? You appear to claim it is both.

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Weird Al

 

Sorry if it isnt clear.

The School she works at breaks for the summer hols on 18/7/2008

She goes on holiday on 11/7/2008 thus missing the last week at School.

 

She has now spoken to all the ETA,s and they are going in to see the Head as one staff member has been allowed to go on holiday for a month, but her and 2 others have been refused.

 

They are asking to meet with the governors of the school who also refused the requests.

 

They have been told that it is breach of contract but none of them appear to have a contract!!

 

Thanks so much for all the replies

Tracy

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ok tracyd, that's clearer. So the holiday is actually term time?

 

Does she teach? If so-

 

Despite not having a written contract I would guess an ET would take the view that it is entirely reasonable for the school to refuse staff a holiday during term time. Indeed, it is for any employer to dictate when holidays are taken in any case.

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Employer can facts dictate when holidays can or can not be taken. If she goes sick and takes her holiday beware she could be disciplined, as by claiming to be sick would be making a false claim.

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It is interesting what you say cal, as that is exactly what is happening with my employer as we were told that we need to book holidays a year in advance and now we have been told to take book holidays 2 years in advance. How can anyone tell a year in advance and it a laughable to thing employees can tell that far in advance what will happen, especially in emergency for them to take holiday. Surely that is unreasonable for employees to put employee under such conditions. :-?

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It is interesting what you say about employers can dictate when you can take holidays cal, as that is exactly what is happening with my employer as we were told that we need to book holidays a year in advance and now we have been told to book holidays 2 years in advance. How can anyone tell a year in advance and it a laughable to think employees can tell that far in advance what will happen, especially in emergency for them to take holiday. Surely that is unreasonable for employees to put employee under such conditions. :-?

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Employer can in facts dictate when holidays can or can not be taken. .

 

not true, UNLESS it is written into the contract!

 

also if the contract makes ref to what is sometimes called a 'local agreement', whereby unions have agreed to 'abide' by the said agreement, then yes they can make resonable requests to avoid certain times.

 

i work in edu too, and the above stands for us, as in a local agreement, but it is only a REQUEST to avoid certain times. by negotiation with the line manager we can take term-time off if it is unavoidable. and yes holidays do count as a just reason, esp as many are double or more the price during traditional holiday periods.

 

it is also on a first come first served basis, if there is no-one to cover my post, then its tough luck can't go, unless we get around a table and talk about it, hence the 'local' agreement! [sort it out amoungst yourselves but dont give the higher managers reason to step in!! ]

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

not true, UNLESS it is written into the contract!

 

also if the contract makes ref to what is sometimes called a 'local agreement', whereby unions have agreed to 'abide' by the said agreement, then yes they can make resonable requests to avoid certain times.

 

i work in edu too, and the above stands for us, as in a local agreement, but it is only a REQUEST to avoid certain times. by negotiation with the line manager we can take term-time off if it is unavoidable. and yes holidays do count as a just reason, esp as many are double or more the price during traditional holiday periods.

 

it is also on a first come first served basis, if there is no-one to cover my post, then its tough luck can't go, unless we get around a table and talk about it, hence the 'local' agreement! [sort it out amoungst yourselves but dont give the higher managers reason to step in!! ]

 

dx

 

 

I`m sorry but you are incorrect. Under the working time directive an employer can say when you can take holidays Holiday entitlements: taking your holidays : Directgov - Employment

 

and here

 

Restrictions and notice | Business Link

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What about when there is an emergency with family members and you need holidays to help out, I had given my employer a months notice that I needed leave for a disabled family member but was told to provide evidence that what I was telling them was true that M&S for you, I put my evidence in an envelop marked it private and confidential and enclosed a letter with it and in that letter I also asked my manager to treat the enclose evidence as private and confidential as it was of a sensitive nature I also wrote a nice letter to him and asked him to explain the rules as the staff hand book was vary vague. this manager totally Ignored my letter and did not treat the evidence that I had given him as private and confidential. Again when I needed a further 4 days leave for the same reason I was asked again for evidence (as they obviously must have a lier written on forehead. Again they were totally against me having these couple of days off as leave. Now this was for a caring purposes but they did not want me to have my leave. There any many, many other serious incidents with this company practices that are tantamount to harassment and discrimination as well as breach of Disable act towards me.:???:

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I`m sorry but you are incorrect. Under the working time directive an employer can say when you can take holidays Holiday entitlements: taking your holidays : Directgov - Employment

 

and here

 

Restrictions and notice | Business Link

 

 

point taken sorry.

i must be lucky then or there must be something in the 'history' of things as those sites say.

this local agreement we have, which covers all manner of other things too, might well be the main reason though.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Guest Gertie100

Obviously teachers holidays are slightly different to the normal - you can plan in advance when the term dates are released! Its not the same as working for a private company and being told that you have to book 2010's summer holiday now...taking the mickey slightly!

 

I think you need to find out what action the LEA will take if / when this happens, if you don't manage to get it sorted beforehand.

Personally I couldn't hold my head up in my workplace knowing that I had had holiday turned down so went on the sick instead...

 

And whilst this may upset some people - don't book holidays during term time! (And yes I am married to a teacher so know how annoying it is having to pay the extra to go in the "holidays" but its never going to change!)

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Has she thought of the possibility of taking the time unpaid? My hubbie is a teacher and he took time off to attend a family member's wedding in the States. The fact that the school didn't have to pay up for a supply teacher as well as pay his wages seemed to work ok!

 

As your sister in law is a TA, a supply TA could be provided. Not that the kids do much the week before summer break anyway.

 

But you have to question the logic in booking a holiday in term time.

Spotnot v MBNA and their nasty solicitors (on behalf of my friend)

 

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And whilst this may upset some people - don't book holidays during term time! (And yes I am married to a teacher so know how annoying it is having to pay the extra to go in the "holidays" but its never going to change!)

 

Don't get me started :mad:

 

£59 each (or less) to southern Spain in term time - £259 (or more) to the same destination a week later. A big difference for 5 of us!

 

Consequently I have never really had too many qualms over taking the kids out of school in the week before half-term - they work hard, are rarely off at any other time and their results are all first class, but even so, there would be fewer problems if policies were applied consistently. Some areas allow up to 2 weeks term-time holiday whilst others don't. I get a bit miffed with some kids having a month off for religious observance as well!

Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

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If I have been helpful in any way - please feel free to click on the STAR to the left!

 

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I understand what you mean making a buck out families during holiday times. At least you are able to book your holidays knowing when you can take them but some employers will not allow this to happen as if you do not get in earlier for booking or if you are off for some reason then they you up the creek even if you want to the time off for caring and you bring evidence that you need this time off for caring they will not let you have them is this bloody minded or what. Other than leaving what are you to do, if you are over 60 and they know it will be difficult to get another job as this age therefore they take full advantage of it.:mad:

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Hi

Just an update of my thread. My sister in law put in an appeal to the govenors. This was again turned down flatly. However the other person who was also refused has been given the go ahead to go as it is classed as a special occasion (anniversary).

 

So she has therefore handed in her notice:o and will leave in a month.

 

She wasnt too keen to do this as she enjoys her job but the Head Teacher didnt seem at all bothered which does seem a shame.

 

Tracy

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And whilst this may upset some people - don't book holidays during term time! (And yes I am married to a teacher so know how annoying it is having to pay the extra to go in the "holidays" but its never going to change!)

I don't know about "upset", it is however unrealistic. DH doesn't get to pick and choose when to take his holidays, he gets them allocated and unless he can swap, he hasn't got any say!

 

It would be a real problem if we could afford to go anywhere. As it is, by the time we can, the kids will probably be grown up and out of school anyway! :rolleyes:

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Guest Gertie100

But I can remember a time when I was in school when kids never had time off for holidays, I think it was before the cheap package deals abroad really became fashionable...It is people's reaction to being ripped off which is at the heart of this issue...however in my hubbys eyes 13 weeks off a year sort of makes up for it!

 

We haven't gone abroad for 3 years, only visited family on the South Coast because we couldn't afford it, so when we go to Disneyland Paris in 5 weeks time I am going to be soooooo excited! (And the only reason we can afford it is because the LA for some reason are having the easter holidays in April rather than at Easter which is different to the majority of the country!)

Also the family on the south coast have moved to italy for 2 years with the navy so Italy it is!

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