Two questions - JBDR and Connaught (seperate debts)

[Shutsumon]

Hi all,

 

New here.

 

Anyway a few years ago (2001) I got into a right mess financially due to a combination of reasons (both parents - who I'd been caring for - died within 6 months of each other and I had a nervous breakdown among other things). Unexpected debts pop up occassionally because the mess was so bad I lost track of some of it even with the CABs help - some of them will be statute barred by now but some I may have acknowledged at some point in the last 6 years (3 year blur of depression).

 

This is all background. I'm doing better now.

 

Last night I got home from work and found a 1571 message from some scottish guy from "JBDR" stating I should call them ASAP "or the account would progress" and quoting a reference number that means nothing to me.

Now the chances are this is for one of the debts I defaulted on in 2001 but for all I know it's moonshine since a reference number that relates to their system means nothing to me. So after a bit of googling I found this place and have drafted out a CCA letter based on the ones I've seen because I am not admitting responsibility for a debt until I know for sure it's mine.

 

So my first question is in two parts...

 

1. Does this sound ok?

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Reference Number *******

I write with regards to the above reference which an employee of yours quoted in a message left on my voicemail.

I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

• You must supply me with a true copy of the credit agreement. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a cheque made out for a £1
  
• A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.
  
• I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

I enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days of your receipt of this letter.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

And secondly who do I make the PO out to? JB Debt Recovery?

 

My second question involves a debt I know all too well. The one I commonly refer to as "the big one". This one was with Lloyds TSB and they sold it to Connaught Collections. I've been paying £150/month since I got my job (just over 3 years) and quite happily (well perhaps happily is the wrong word but you know what I mean) acknowledge I owe it. I have every intention to continue paying until it is gone (sometime in 2013) or sooner should my income rise sufficiently. (Though having researched more I'd far rather pay the original creditor if there's anyway that can still be done at this point).

 

Should I send a CCA letter to them anyway? I want to pay this debt off and I know I signed the agreement (I even think I still have my own copy somewhere).

 

On a slightly tangential note - I checked my credit file at CreditExpert.co.uk and only the afore mentioned "Big One" and a £35 debt to Avon that I'd completely forgotten (it's mine as well and since it's only £35 I'm going to write and ask for a payment slip) showed as defaults. I KNOW there were a couple more debts than that I defaulted on (though the details are hazy) why don't they show? The only other things are one I settled (which shows as settled) and my adverse debt credit card which is all green zeros because I've been religious about paying it since it's purpose is to improve my record. I'm mean I'm happy it's better than I thought but could they suddenly jump out of the woodwork and negate all my hard work to make things better?

 

Becky

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Hi

Becky I think you should wait for letters to come from these companies, hold fire with any letter (although yours looks good) until a more experienced caggers posts some advice.

I expect you've read some of the threads I would say don't sign the letter or cheque (better even send a postal order) just print your name, I am sure who are already aware of the facts, but it is always usful to have these reminders.

[Goldlady]

Hi, I would send CCA requests on both. The JB one is interesting as presumably you have nothing in writing from them yet. With the LTSB one it would not harm to send them a CCA request and if they can't comply you can make a decision about what to do next:D.

 

If the rest aren't showing on your record then forget them. They are more than likely statute barred from what you have said.

 

Your letter is fine by the way. Go for it.

 

And welcome to CAG by the way. You will get lots of help and support, as I did when I first came here. If you don't get an answer shout again.

[dx100uk]

if the last activity on the debt with jb WAS 2001 then forget it, its statute barred [6yrs] ignore them.

as for the others , well what and how you pay is up two you, but i would certainly cca them you never know.

by paying, say the avon debt off, it wont remove the enties on the cra, and like the others ...might they all be due statute barred soon?

 

dx

[Shutsumon]

Thank you everyone.

 

if the last activity on the debt with jb WAS 2001 then forget it, its statute barred [6yrs] ignore them.

as for the others , well what and how you pay is up two you, but i would certainly cca them you never know.

by paying, say the avon debt off, it wont remove the enties on the cra, and like the others ...might they all be due statute barred soon?

 

dx

 

Well the LTSB one won't. I've been paying it as I said. The Avon one probably will the default date was in 2001 as I recall (I'll take another look tomorrow) and I don't recall the last time I spoke to them about it. Probably 2002 at the latest. The wanting to pay it is more about me - I'm embarrassed I owe someone such a piffling amount and I do I owe it. Now I see it I remember it.

 

The JBDR debt I don't even know what it is yet - I've had no letters only phonecalls to date. I think I'd laugh myself silly should it turn out to be the Avon one but I doubt that. The CCA letter is as much 'a what are you chasing me for?' thing as anything . It probably is one of the statute barred ones by elimination but I want to be sure that they aren't chasing the wrong person or indeed that it isn't some mysteriously appearing unbarred debt.

 

Which leads me to another question - do student loans defaults show up as such. I have a Student loan from 1993 and nervous breakdowns and deferrement forms do not mix so I owe the whole (fairly minor amount). This is the most likely culprit I think - I know it's not statute barred (I've spoken to them more recently than most debts - sometime in 2003 I think) but it's not showing on the file. There are a couple of other things it could be but they should be statute barred.

 

Thanks again,

Becky

[Shutsumon]

Hi again,

 

I've been reading around some more and I'm now wondering if I should send a letter formally requesting details of this alleged debt JBDR areas possible before sending a CCA.

 

To reiterate I have received no written communications from them just the phone call (I may have had others since I sometimes get call us messages from scottish bods with no company name or ref attached - those I ignore completely) and I don't even know which debt they are chasing me for or even if it's one of mine. If it is one of mine it's probably statute barred but I need to know which debt it is before going to CCA/statue barred stage right?

 

Could anyone advise me on how to phrase this?

 

Becky

[DaisyMay]

Hi Becky

 

My husband has been getting a lot of phone calls from JBDR which we haven't acknowledged.

I have found on their website that they collect debts on behalf of debt purchase companies specialising in statute barred, so they might not have anything on you especially if you don't ring them back

[Shutsumon]

Hi Becky

 

My husband has been getting a lot of phone calls from JBDR which we haven't acknowledged.

I have found on their website that they collect debts on behalf of debt purchase companies specialising in statute barred, so they might not have anything on you especially if you don't ring them back

 

Heh, the chances of me ringing them back are zero. Quite apart from the advice on here to keep everything in writing I have a phone phobia. Seriously - I can use the phone if I need to but I have to psyche myself up to do it and it leaves me feeling ill afterwards. I won't do it where a letter will be as or more effective - which is just about everywhere.

 

Becky

[Shutsumon]

Only me again,

 

I'm still waiting for opinions on if I should send the CCA before I know what debt they are chasing. In the interim I've amended the CCA letter slightly in response to what I've heard about DCA's using it as a payment towards the alleged debt - with debts that maybe close to statute barred if not statute barred I don't want them effectively resetting the clock on them. I'll just quote the paragraph I've altered.

 

• You must supply me with a true copy of the credit agreement. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a postal order for £1.00 which represents the statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. Please note this is not a payment towards the alleged debt (which as I stated above I do not acknowledge) and is not to be used as such.

 

I still want to know if I should just send the CCA letter or should send a letter enquiring for details of the alleged debt first so I can ascertain if a: I even owe it, and b: if it's statute barred and/or covered by the CCA (most of my debts are certainly of that nature but I'm not sure about Student Loans - really funny laws there as I recall).

 

Becky

[Boro]

Personally i would sit tight and wait for them to write to you, you should then know what the debt relates to and the amount etc, they could just be fishing at the moment (ie contacting lots of people with the same or similar surname) so imo this is the best action for now

[Goldlady]

I would send a letter asking for proof of the debt and hang fire on the CCA request. If they then come back with details of the debt you can then send the CCA request - I think anyway.

[Shutsumon]

I would send a letter asking for proof of the debt and hang fire on the CCA request. If they then come back with details of the debt you can then send the CCA request - I think anyway.

 

Any advice on how I should phrase said request?

 

Becky

[Goldlady]

Actually if you have had no letters from them at all I would do as Boro has advised - nothing. Wait for them to write and if they call again tell them you will respond if they write but you will not discuss it on the phone.

[Goldlady]

Becky I am confused about the student loan as surely it would automatically be deducted from your earnings and if you are not earning enough to pay it then the student loan company should know that.

[Shutsumon]

Becky I am confused about the student loan as surely it would automatically be deducted from your earnings and if you are not earning enough to pay it then the student loan company should know that.

 

It's an old style student loan taken out in 1993, they didn't work the same. They weren't deducted from your wages automatically and if you wanted to defer due to lack of income you had to fill in a deferment form every year - and if for whatever reason you failed to either defer or start paying in a specific time frame (3 months from end of deferment period I think it was) the entire amount defaulted and you couldn't defer again. (I think the amount of chaos caused by the forms and people forgetting to submit them is why they changed the system). That's what happened to me in 2001 because I had a nervous breakdown and filling in forms was the last thing on my mind. (I forgot to fill in the rent and council tax rebate forms as well that year - but they were good about it and backdated it when they did I finally get them in).

 

The student loans company have been acting like an (expletive deleted) ever since for a debt of something less than £700.

 

Becky

[Goldlady]

I guess they could have put these debt collectors onto it - suppose you will just have to wait and see.

[Shutsumon]

I guess they could have put these debt collectors onto it - suppose you will just have to wait and see.

 

They probably did. The Government sold off all the old-style student loans a while back and things have gotten worse since (not so much for me as for anyone with an old style loan)

 

Becky

[Shutsumon]

I found a "prove it" letter template thanks to The Godmother mentioning it in another thread and I've been playing around with it to try and make it fit my situation. Does this sound all right?

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Reference Number *******

I write with regards to the above reference which an employee of your company quoted in a message left on my voicemail.

I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and would point out that I have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to you.

 

I am familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive and/or unfair methods.

 

Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I would therefore ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my liability for the debt in question.

 

I await your written disclosure of said evidence or confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Shutsumon

 

I'm not entirely happy with the middle bit since this is the first time I have contacted them about this matter, so I can't really say they are ignoring me - they probably will ignore me but I think I need to phrase it better.

 

Once again any input gratefully received.

 

Becky

[Goldlady]

I would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. If you do not cease collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive and/or unfair methods.

 

If you ignore and/or disregard claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continue to make unjustified demands for payment I understand this amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

Is that any better?

[Shutsumon]

Thanks! That's great. *Amends letter accordingly*

[Shutsumon]

Sent the prove it letter 1st class recorded delivery this afternoon after work. Now I guess I just have to wait to see what their response is.

 

Thanks people,

Becky

[Shutsumon]

While I'm waiting on a response from JBDR to see what they are talking about I thought I'd give you some background on the other debt (the LTSB now with Connaught one)

 

Back in Jan 2000 my mother and by extension I ran into a spot of financial bother due to her credit card (she had a TSB Visa card) and was struggling to pay it. We also had a joint bank account with overdraft and a nearly completed joint loan together. We should have sorted this out the sensible way but a Lady from the bank persuaded us to refinance via an unsecured joint loan.

 

Bad mistake. At the time I was apprehensive - I remember actually asking my mother what would happen to me if she died and being told not to be morbid.

 

Almost exactly a year later she did die of conjestive heart failure with a secondary cause of M.S. and suddenly I could not afford to pay the loan since my small business as a market trader had already fallen victim to the storms of that winter and I was subsisting on Invalid Carers Allowance and Income Support. At the point she died we were paying half payments as negotiated by mum (because the payment insurance didn't cover this) but I couldn't even make them and because we were in arrears due to Mum's arrangement I still couldn't claim when the Doctor signed me on the sick due to stress after her death. To be fair LTSB froze the loan account for 6 months to give me time to sort my head out and find employment and said that they'd accept half-payments thereafter. Unfortunately almost exactly the time the freeze ran out my father died and bereavement and stress turned into a nervous breakdown and full fledged depression that I'm still recovering from. I was still subsisting on benefits and managed to drag myself to the CAB (where I vaguely recall the advisor was not at all impressed with LTSB for giving us this loan in the first place). I gave her my permission to deal with my creditors since I was a wreck and we did a budget and offered token payments which were refused by LTSB who demanded £70/month at least (I was on £55/week or thereabouts so I was not impressed with their demands). The account then passed through various DCAs all demanding silly amounts a month but never going to court (they knew what would happen if they did - my token payments would be upheld). We tried to raise the money for bankruptcy and couldn't. Eventually it went to Connaught who hounded and harangued me for £90/month (see how this is going up not down while I'm on benefits) which I bluntly told them was silly and they could whistle for. Everything changed after in one phonecall the agent threatened to send me bankrupt and I said "Yes, please." There was a long pause and then she said she was sorry to bother me and hung up.

 

Then it all went quiet for about two years (well I did get one letter after 12 months or so asking if my circumstances had changed to which I said no) in which time I was on antidepressants temporarily, underwent CBT and found a fulltime job. Within two months of my finding a job I got a letter from Connaught asking if my circumstances had changed (this was about twelve months after the last one so I think it's coincidence). I'd actually just finished compiling my budget when the letter came and being a honest kind of bod who was still blaming herself for getting into this mess I rang up and told them I'd got a job and I'd be sending them a budget to show I could pay £150/month. (This is slightly over half the original repayment) The DCA guy said no need to send proof - that would be acceptable and sent me a standing order form.

 

That was December 2004. The loan defaulted at just under £15k in 2001 and by the end of March I will have paid about £6k to Connaught - who I now understand probably paid about 1.5k for it.

 

In retrospect I don't think LTSB should have given us that loan - after all if we hadn't refinanced mum's credit card into the loan it would have died

with her and I would have had much less debt to contend with and it'd probably be clear by now. She was seriously ill (MS) and I was self-employed with a just as seriously uncertain income. Maybe I should have known better - but shouldn't they have known better too?

 

This is why I'm wondering if I should CCA them. I doubt they can produce it but even if they can i'm begining to wonder if I have any legal (as opposed to moral where I'm pretty sure I do) case to say the loan shouldn't have been extended to us (especially since we didn't request it they came to us when we started trying to negotiate with them).

 

All I want is leverage to negotiate. I know people with bad debts sometimes make settlements for lesser amounts but I can't afford any sort of lump sum. By the end of this year I will of cleared around half the original default sum (slightly under but close). I'm wondering if I can lever them into saying that's enough.

 

After all it was a joint loan and that would be my half (Yes, I know the law doesn't work that way but I'm not talking about legalities)

 

Does anyone have any advice?

 

Becky

[Goldlady]

Hi Becky, I am sure you have been stitched up here but am not sure about the legalities of it. Was all of the original debt all your Mum's? I think we need some advice from greater beings than me on this one.

[Shutsumon]

No, not all of it. As I said we had a joint bank account with an overdraft and a joint loan (taken out when Mum was healthier though she was already sick) that had 18 months to 2 years to run at the time. I think I worked out that at the time of my mother's death I would have owed LTSB about 8k instead of 15k. Possibly less depending how much more would have gone from the original loan. Mum's CC debt was over 5k as I recall.

 

Should have gone to CAB in 2000 but hindsight is always 20:20 isn't it?

 

Becky

[Goldlady]

I think I would send that CCA request just to see what they come back with. If they do have something enforceable then we can work out your next move.

 

As it is common knowledge that these DCAs buy debts for 5-10% of their true value I think they have had their pound of flesh from you. If they do manage to find an agreement I would hope that you could appeal to their better nature () if such a thing exists, and negotiate a final settlement - maybe not a lump sum but perhaps over a short period to get rid of it.

 

I truly hope they don't find anything.