Sharkie - V- Nat West Credit Cardn ***WON ***

[sharkie]

I could not remember when or how I ended up with my Air Miles card, and as Nat West’s attitude towards us has changed recently, we always make our payments and are under our limit, so I decided to make a CCA request.

 

From when they signed for the request their 12 working days expired on Monday, so on Wednesday I faxed and then sent them a letter informing them they were in default.

 

Today we have received what they claim satisfies the request.

 

They claim;

“ In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the ‘true’ copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.”

 

My understanding was they had to supply a true copy of our agreement.

 

What they have supplied is a 4 page copy of something, it is predominately unreadable, and it is so poor I can not find any dates or signatures.

 

Surely they cannot be right.

 

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Sharkie.

 

There's a good thread here on CCA's.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/83035-guidelines-requests-original-agreement.html?highlight=cant+read+cca+request

 

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

 

 

[paulwlton]

I could not remember when or how I ended up with my Air Miles card, and as Nat West’s attitude towards us has changed recently, we always make our payments and are under our limit, so I decided to make a CCA request.

 

From when they signed for the request their 12 working days expired on Monday, so on Wednesday I faxed and then sent them a letter informing them they were in default.

 

Today we have received what they claim satisfies the request.

 

They claim;

“ In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the ‘true’ copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.”

 

My understanding was they had to supply a true copy of our agreement.

 

What they have supplied is a 4 page copy of something, it is predominately unreadable, and it is so poor I can not find any dates or signatures.

 

Surely they cannot be right.

 

 

No they are not right, and remain in default.

[sharkie]

Well after I sent them a letter stating they had failed to supply me reference my CCA request, I got a snotty letter from Credit Card Operations refusing to meet my unreasonable requests, etc.

To which I replied;

Dear Samantha Nickol

 

Reference your letter dated 6th March received 12th March, replying to my letter dated 18th February.

• You state “You have outlined your complaint” in my letter of 18th February there is no mention of complaint, the letter refers to a request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which you have failed to fulfil.

• You state “you have now chosen to refute liability for this debt” again nowhere in my letter of 18th February is this mentioned, as above, my letter refers to a request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which you have failed to fulfil, the law dictates, until our request is satisfied fully the debt is unenforceable, and the account formerly in dispute, no further action may be taken against us, any default notice placed on this account must be immediately lifted, also if you have passed any of our information, and, or debt to a third party this must be rectified immediately.

• You state “we will take debt recovery action against you which will include the procedures prescribed under the Consumer Credit Act”, which you cannot do as you have not fulfilled your obligations under that act, and so far you have failed to provide a consumer credit agreement between us.

• You state “I do not consider it necessary to meet the unreasonable request(s) you have now made”, this is disappointing as the only request I made was for a true copy of our credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a request that is both reasonable and acceptable.

• You have stated “This letter concludes the Bank’s complaint investigation process”, therefore, I will have to consider this letter from you in your capacity of Team Manager as a formal statement from National Westminster that you are refusing to supply a true copy of our credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

• In summary, I made a request for a true copy of our credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which now it seems you are refusing to supply, I have not refused to pay for any debt that I owe however I need to clarify the structure of the debt you claim I owe and where I agreed to that structure, this is hard as there appears to be no Consumer Credit Agreement in place between us, I believed that this could have been resolved in a reasonable manner, however it is you that have threatened to take action.

I did also email this response to Michael Duncan (Internal Audit) @ RBS , I have just received a stern response Quote;

“Your letter dated 12 March has been referred to me as I was responsible for dealing with your file.

After consultation with our Legal Department, they are satisfied that the application you signed, which later formed our agreement with you, is fully compliant with section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act and as such, your debt is fully recoverable by us.

Whilst I understand you feel the balance is in dispute and that we should therefore not notify Credit Reference Agencies of any default, we;

· Have not as yet registered a Default in relation to this account, although we may have notified the Credit Reference Agencies of some adverse data, specially the lateness of payments in the history of the account

· Are not in dispute with you over the balance. You can only dispute the balance if you deny the debt relates to you as a person, or you do not recognise the transactions on the account.

It follows that we do not agree with your request to remove adverse data from your credit file.

Our letter dated 6 March 2008 represented the Bank’s Final Response in connection with this matter. The balance on your account remains outstanding and as the debt is legitimate payments must resume in line with your monthly credit card statements.

Please note that we shall not reply to any further correspondence on this matter as we have made our final position clear and have nothing further to add.”

I have not received a copy of “the application you signed, which later formed our agreement with you” just a very poor unreadable 4 page copy of a copy of something, not dated, and with no signatures, it is so bad I can’t even make out what it is.

Never been here before what next ?

[steven4064]

You may want to use this quote from The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 SI No. 1557

Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

2.-(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the colour of the paper

[sharkie]

Just received a letter dated 10th April continuing to state that they have supplied a copy of my signed agreement.

 

Copy here

 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/The_Sharkie/Image026.jpg

 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/The_Sharkie/Image025.jpg

 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/The_Sharkie/Image024.jpg

 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/The_Sharkie/Image023.jpg

 

And that they will not reply further and that I should take it up with the FOS.

 

Then I get a letter dated 2 days earlier saying my account is now terminated.

[paulwlton]

Alter the letter below to suite. Although they'll not respond back now they've issued their final response, you'll make them aware of your stance.

 

 

 

 

 

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 21st June 2007, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 26th April 2007. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An application form does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 25th May 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 25th May 2007 and subsequently committed a criminal offence on 25th June 2007.

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to hold a consumer credit license in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[sharkie]

After many, many heated letters back a forwards to just about every department, well good news arrived today.

 

Never got my credit agreement, they kept claiming the four page unreadable document that they had sent was it and that was full and final.

 

Never got all of my statements, as they had claimed I made my SAR request in February of 2008, therefore they only sent six years based on that date, in fact that was the date of my last chase letter my SAR was in July 2007, amongst all of the correspondence and intervention paperwork they sent me was a copy of my original SAR request.

 

I wrote to Nat West with copies to everyone including Chief Executives explaining that they had failed to respond to my CCA request, and had made a ridiculous mistake with the dating of my SAR request, especially having supplied me with a copy of my original request.

 

With no Credit Agreement and a failure on the SAR, I made them an ex gratia offer to settle my account, I calculated all charges (and estimated the ones from missing statements) added interest and took it from my balance, I then demanded all data to be removed except the initial opening and one of settled in full, and obviously complete release from any responsibility for the balance.

 

And they accepted everything.

 

Good win this one.

[steven4064]

Sharkie, that is briliant

 

CONGRATULATIONS

 

[maroondevo52]

Superb Sharkie Well done.

[sharkie]

Thanks guys

 

I'm pleased with this one because it got extremely nasty, but as we always say on here rules is rules, if your right don't give in.

[saintly_1]

[zootscoot]

Congratulations!!!!!!!

:D:D

[::Lisa::]

First of all congratulations on your win. Very nice. How did you win so fast? I've been doing my claim with NW for over a year now and I got my claim put on hold. I've not heard anything from them.

[sharkie]

Lisa

 

Thanks

 

 

My post rate is quite low, however my win rate is high, this never means it was easy, mine was not an easy battle.

 

To be frank, in fact it got extremely nasty, however, if you are correct persist.

 

All I can say is you have to find an angle, a chink, a slight mistake, and when you do, go for it, these people are dealing with so many claims they are making errors all the time.

 

Even if you have hit stalemate, especially at the moment just keep up the pressure.

 

In my case with NW they had stated on more that one occasion that their decision was "full and final" and that they were not going to respond to any further correspondence, but they did, and then they folded.

[steven4064]

Nat West will not go to court on a charges claim. Just keep up the pressure as sharkie says and they will fold when they finally get the message that you won't.