westminster council claim ticket not dislayed

[mamothd]

got a ticket from westminster today.

Was displaying a valid ticket, together with my disabled badge.

 

the ticket says display on windscreen, but there is no glue at all on it, so is impossible to stick on the windscreen. I mean no glue at all!!

 

so displayed on dashboard, and the old wind thing happened after walking away. result is it was upside down. Attendant came and noted on his machine the ticket was valid when I collared him, after issuing a PCN.

 

Technically it wasn't displayed correctly.But if there was no glue on it (and I'm keeping the ticket as evidence), is it legally valid? Is that a basis for a let-off?

 

has anyone else got off with an upside down ticket (which was nevertheless a valid ticket)?

Have written to them, but no doubt they'll reject.Is it worth going to adjudicator and risking my time and an extra £40?

 

thanks

Neil

[mamothd]

I'm trying to work out how to attach a scanned image here.Hope fully, soon you'll be able to see both sides of Westminster's PCN.

i'm still not clear: does it have to have colour and/or date of issue to be valid?

 

To me, it would be strange if Westminster's tickets are invalid.i mean, how little would it cost them to make the wording right, compared to the millions they get in fines?

 

maybe I'm just being naive.

Any help from an expert would be great.

[Michael Browne]

Scan it into your computer and open it in Paint or similar program. Edit out the personal information and save it

 

Open an a/c on Photobucket, (here Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket ), download them there from your computer and then post the link from Photobucket in your thread here.

 

 

See how to in post #15 here:

"How do I...?" A Dummies' Guide to this Forum

[green_and_mean]

Colour is not needed to make PCN legally compliant and unless they have changed their PCNs recently they do have date of issue on them.

[mamothd]

thanks a lot

hopefully, the pasting will work.

 

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh49/mammothd/ticket1-2.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh49/mammothd/t-2.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh49/mammothd/pcn11.jpg

[mamothd]

thanks g & m

but if you look at atached pcn it doesn't have date of issue.or have I missed it?

If it's missing des that mean it's invalid?

[tomterm8]

Can't read it entirely - they are very small - , but "Date of notice" is presumably the same as date of issue.

[green_and_mean]

Above the PAs signature is the date of notice which is what is required.

[mamothd]

I've just noticed the back of the pcn says "....,payment must be made within 14 days (including the date of issue of this penalty charge notice)..."

 

so it does mention date of issue, but on the back.Does this make it valid, or do those magic words have tobe on the front?

[mamothd]

I had read somewhere here that "date of notice" is not the same as "date of issue" in law.It said without date of issue on the front it's invalid.

 

is that correct?

[tomterm8]

Hi, Mamothd,

 

I believe the relevant case law is

R (on the application of London Borough of Barnet Council) v Parking Adjudicator .

 

The requirements for a valid PCN are set out, in paragraph s36 as such:

 

 

36.

It seems to me that s 66 requires two dates to be stated on a PCN. These are the date of the contravention and the

date of the notice...

 

Note that the date of notice is actually the date when the ticket is issued.

 

Your ticket clearly shows a date of contravention, and just above the parking attendants signature a date of notice (which is identical to the date of contravention).

 

IMHO, it appears that your ticket is valid, BUT I can't read all of the text, and it would be better if you were to post a clearer image.

[mamothd]

so it looks like my defence is the fluttering ticket. There was , I repeat, no glue on the ticket, so I had to put it on the dashboard.

But will TPAS say I should have checked it was displaying the right way up before I walked away? If so, is it really worth fighting?

 

What would you do?

[mamothd]

so it looks like the fluttering ticket is my defence.

As I said, there was no glue on the ticket, which is why I had to put it on the dash.But should I have checked it was the right way up before I walked away?

Is it really worth defending?

What would you do?

[mamothd]

Had to display on the dash as there is no glue on the ticket.

It fluttered to wrong way up after I walked away, and when I returned got a ticket from Westminster cos it wasn't displayed properly.

 

My time is expensive, and I want to go all the way, but if I'm going to lose is it worth it?

Does anyone have experience of this defence- they'll say it was my duty to check it was up the right way before I left the car.

tragically, the ticket itself appears to be correct in every way, so a technical defence is pointless.

[Tony P]

"Wrong way up"

 

Do you mean 'upsidedown' (but detail still visible) so TA had to twist his head (temptation!) to read it

 

or

 

face down, (detail completely hiding from view) with reverse on display?

[tomterm8]

Firstly, I would take pictures of where you parked, and post them up on the forum (including any road signs in the area you parked, road markings etc). I would also go to the town hall, and find out if there are any RTO's for the area.

 

can you also post up a copy of the ticket? front and back

 

(You might find it easier to use photoshack.com than the attachement feature).

 

It's not my area (I'm just learning the ropes) but if you have a valid ticket AND you say you displayed it correctly AND it was of insubstantial enough material so it might have "fluttered" away, then I believe it is quite likely that an appeal would succeed.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Take a look at these:

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/about/cases/MC00227Hepworth.doc

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/BAK673.pdf

Bear in mind that the adjudicators consider the same law.

If it was me, I would find something else to appeal on as well.

I would make a FOI request for a copt of the TRO - I have done that recently in Westminster (for parking in a residents' bay on Sunday) and the docs received clearly show the restrictions Monday to Saturday only!

[mamothd]

Thanks a lot for your help.The ticket was upside down, so you couldn't read the front of it

 

From reading the LB Wandsworth case I'm 99% sure I have no chance. That chap did what was asked. ie. stuck it in the windsceen first, and still got refused the appeal.

 

I didn't actually do what was asked. I put it on the dashboard because there was no glue on it.

I daresay an adjudicator would say I should carry sellotape with me!

 

Interestingly, I NEVER put a ticket on the windscreen.I always display it on the dashboard. So strictly speaking I could always be done for not displaying in the proscribed manner.But I never have been before (of course, in those cases the ticket was at least perfectly readable by a warden).

 

 

My best defence is the ticket has no glue on it at all, so is a defective instrument. But maybe a hostile adjudicator would suggest I'd rubbed off all traces of glue after the event to make my case look better (I haven't done this,of course).

 

What do you think of that defence?

I think this is important because there must be hundreds of cases like m ine every year.

[pt2537]

the wording of the ticket can be a good arguement if it mis represent the legal position,

 

ie if the ticket says YOU ARE THEREFORE REQUIRED TO PAY A PENALTY it is incorrect, as YOU may or may not be the owner or RK and it is clear under the RTA that liability falls squarely on the owner for a PCN.

 

the Case of Camden v Aspire loft conversions sets this out

[mamothd]

Just thought of something which,in fact, harms my case.

The ticket says "display in windsreen".

 

It doesn't say "ON" windsreen.

Therefore they'll argue it deliberately doesn't have glue on it because it's only supposed to be displayed in a way that the warden can read it through the windscreen. This would clearly include the dashboard.

 

From this the adjudicator would argue it wasn't defective as an instrument, and it was my responsibility to ensure it was displaying correctly.

[patdavies]

Just thought of something which,in fact, harms my case.

The ticket says "display in windsreen".

 

It doesn't say "ON" windsreen.

Therefore they'll argue it deliberately doesn't have glue on it because it's only supposed to be displayed in a way that the warden can read it through the windscreen. This would clearly include the dashboard.

 

From this the adjudicator would argue it wasn't defective as an instrument, and it was my responsibility to ensure it was displaying correctly.

 

 

I would question how you are supposed to display any such ticket to a vehicle without a windscreen...

[pt2537]

Just thought of something which,in fact, harms my case.

The ticket says "display in windsreen".

 

It doesn't say "ON" windsreen.

Therefore they'll argue it deliberately doesn't have glue on it because it's only supposed to be displayed in a way that the warden can read it through the windscreen. This would clearly include the dashboard.

 

From this the adjudicator would argue it wasn't defective as an instrument, and it was my responsibility to ensure it was displaying correctly.

 

to avoid any confusion,

 

my last comment was aimed at the PCN its self not the piece you place in the windscreen

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

The ticket says "display in windsreen".

 

Or you could argue:

 

The windscreen is a piece of glass, how are you supposed to get the ticket in it?

 

Back to reality, on the glue issue, are you saying that the ticket was defective in manufacture or design?

[green_and_mean]

Just how many threads do you think this single PCN needs I have counted 3 so far!!!

[mamothd]

I'm saying it was defective if the instructions had been to afix "on " the screen.

 

Obviously "in " the windscreen would be taken to mean it's dsiplayed so someone outside the car can read rthe ticket through the windscreen.

 

I bought a parking ticket today,BTW, and it had no glue on it.Clearly, these tickets are not designed to be stuck on to glass.They are,presumable,meant to be put on to a dashboard. Although I did so, it was just my bad luck it turned over after I walked away, and I'm resolved I'll have to pay it.