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    • you need to ring northants bulk and ask for a copy of the judgement and the claimform by email pdf. it is quite usual for them to not have a copy of the claimform. so you need to record the call and ask them to read out the particulars of claim and the address it was sent too.     old wives tales , if you have a debt owing that shows on your credit file or you know exists from say the last 7yrs you should NEVER move without WRITTING to the debt owner with your new address. never run from debt which falls within the above .     all mortgage style SLC loans that were not deferred with erudio following the gov't sale in 2013 and that did not have a court claim raised within 6yrs are SB'd.   drydens simply did this because they wrote to your old address, got no response, and knew they'd get a default roboclaim CCJ where no human checks anything.   shot yourself in the foot.      
    • yep.   if all these are still owned/with the original creditors and you are not paying any powerless DCA's  then little point in any CCA requests at this stage unless any (non OD A/C's) are say pre 2000 opening.   our pro rata letters are the way to go you'll find those in the debt collection section of our library.   get any income payments on going or otherwise moved into a parachute A/c.   it is most probable that whatever you do most A/c's will be defaulted once this is done if not already. bearing in mine your wish to re mortgage or move in a future, it is most probable that the quicker you do default , the earlier a DN will be registered thus the earlier these will not show following their 6th birthday. this might involve you thinking about stopping all payments now ensuring this does happen, then resuming payment under a pro rata scheme self administered , once this happens.   just be aware that no DMP providers will ever question enforceability, should that be relevant.     
    • LL would have Absolutely no chance of getting the smart meter changed back.....
    • slow down ...read what i'm asking , stating and trying to clarify.. it all might seem useless or totally irrelevant but it's important information moving forward with the whole situation and useful in the SPC claim moving forward     there was not 2 loans - the litigated OD is not a loan but it appears from your comment here..     sorry but then you did get scammed on many fronts... they allowed you to settle the loan exploiting your confusion over thinking it was the litigated account. they didn't tell you either and they would also have been aware of your statement filed response form:   The respondent had a junior account with the Bank of Scotland since a young age.  The Bank of Scotland offered the Respondent a loan of around £2500. This Respondent serviced the loan until losing her source of income and ran into some financial difficulty resulting in defaulting in servicing the loan.   they settled for a discounted sum... why? we usually find this is because they hold no enforceable paperwork at all. or was full of charges , charges could have been the discount or it could have been due to 'a business decision' ...   but sure as eggs is eggs there is no way 1st credit would not have raised a court claim for both the OD and the loan unless there was a very good reason. they didn't that smells...badly.   OD 's are notoriously difficult to litigate upon if defended properly...but with a loan in the same claim, with enforceable paperwork, they would have almost been guaranteed to win.   it's also a shame you didn't come where before you did anything but we are where we are.   now the above might seem harsh..even petty but our posts are not only for you and your issue they are also for future readers that find us via search engines or read like threads here alerting debtors to frequent pitfalls and innocent wet myself actions many do that all these dca's will and have exploited time and time again over the last +40yrs .   i'll try and get around to properly redacting all your pdf's tonight and get them back up. but before i finish and get on with the above........the status of the claim as it stands now.   From what i can gather the claim now hinges upon proving her ex at the time settled by a discounted payment to HBOS well before the sale to Intrum and the SPC Claim.   In all honestly and with regard to your comments in your previous posts upon his character, i seriously doubt this ever happened. the disclosures from Intrum contain all the OD statements , should that have happened, it would be detailed in those.   there is little point in the claimant hiding that info as they would be in far more legal trouble should they have doctored them than insuring a mere +£1k claim win. Even 1st credit wouldn't pull such stunts.   Sorry but there is little point in requesting HBOS to attend any future hearing, nor hoping the SAR shows anything different to the statements the claimant has disclosed . That will cost you more money , and more money in terms of the claimant attending another hearing.   there is one exploitation i see. that being the mention of a default notice. the claim states:  The respondent fell into arrears under the Finance Agreement. A Default Notice was Issued by the Original Creditor .   now default notices are not issued for OD A/C's (which ties in to the possible loan confusion and scam settlement i mentioned) . This tallies with a common mistake that many DCA's, including why i keep mentioning 1st credit, which is the previous name for Intrum, made on numerous claims and was one of the reasons for the name change. To Hide that They lost many Statutory Demand and court claims over the non existence of a DN or proof of it's issuance by the OC (a DCA can't issue a DN) .. No copy of a default notice is fatal to to successful  litigation.   even though in this OD case one was not ever needed. (Poor particulars of claim showing copy and paste, and never expecting a claim to be defended but responded to by a wet themselves response , which you did by settling a loan which you believed was the claimed debt when it never was)    other than that you indicate you made an OOC F&F offer in 09-20  have you advanced this option since ?   dx
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 31 replies
    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
      • 49 replies

kensington mortgages


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hi thanks for all ur replies right i had 1 month where they accepted a reduced payment of 200 now i have just missed this 1 st payment and as income support has only just paid out [as u can imagine will not cover my mortgage i asked them to help with my mortgage income support rule is 39 weeks and then they will pay the interest only .fine but by then ill be out on my ear.which i tryed to explain to them i will lose my house the girl just put the phone down.so i phoned kensington then told them they said well u have 2 months b4 we start to take the house back . disabilty living allowance take up to 16 weeks . but what i have done is registered with the local council just in case and im trying to find out as much info as i can i just might hit a loophole . they have already now added £20 for cancelled d/d which if i didt do that then the bank would have slapped there charges on as well as kensington.plus now another £50 for non paymen. so any info any1 has however little im gratful thanks for ur hepl

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today recieved aletter form kensington say i have until 29the feb to make them a payment of £250 [which i cant do being on income support]if i fail that they will send a debt counsellor to my home at the cost of £94.00 in the event [debt counsellors visit does not take place a cancellation fee of £58.75 will be charged to me . does any think if i send them a letter stating i dont need this person to call as i am in contact with all of the help i need and state there is no need to charge me this fee. due to i am giving them good notice of i dont need there service . will they still charge me [this person will call end of march. any advise from here would be grateful for

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today recieved aletter form kensington say i have until 29the feb to make them a payment of £250 [which i cant do being on income support]if i fail that they will send a debt counsellor to my home at the cost of £94.00 in the event [debt counsellors visit does not take place a cancellation fee of £58.75 will be charged to me . does any think if i send them a letter stating i dont need this person to call as i am in contact with all of the help i need and state there is no need to charge me this fee. due to i am giving them good notice of i dont need there service . will they still charge me [this person will call end of march. any advise from here would be grateful for

 

Hi there

 

You are not alone. As you already have found out KMC are not the most sympathetic of people. I currently have a complaint going with the FOS about KMC and will let you know the outcome as if i win it will help out alot of people.

 

Anyway I definately think you should write to kensington and cancel this person coming round. Go and see the CAB and they will help you with an income and expenditure form. If you see them first you can then show KMC that you are seeking help from other sources. I dont know if this will work as KMC might insist they send this manbut he will only do the same so it is worth a shot.. In my experience it is a waste of time them sending this person. PLEASE PLEASE if they do send him let people know on here and they will advise.

 

Hope this helps and please dont panic. The help you get on here will help you along everystep of the way :)

 

Regards

The Olives

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HUBBY

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also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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can i ask how many months did they give u b4 they started taking action [court] i am alos writing to them because this way i have proof. i aqlso have welcome on my back as well for a secured loan i have as well

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Contact the OFT - it is against their rules to charge for a 'debt manager' to come to you for mortgage arrears - wouldn't the money be better off paying towards the arrears rather than to somebody who basically is there to see that you are 'not living beyond your means' and are snooping to see if it is worth sending in bailiffs after a CCJ rather than reposession.

 

Mention this to Kensington and they will back off... it's 'just a standard letter' they will say. If you can RECORD every conversation with them as you can use this in court (should it come to that). Again, it is 'Not down to the Judge on the day of the hearing' to grant reposession - they can stop the process at any time but dont (or rather WONT).

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this is the letter i am sending to them tomorrow

Dear Sir/Madam

I reply to your letter dated 22nd Feb 08.regarding debt counselling.

I would like to advise you I don’t need this service. As I have been in contact with the legal aid dept. and will be seeing a solicitor soon. So I am giving you notice to cancel this debt counselling service to avoid myself a cancelation fee {of £58.75] also I will be contacting the office of fair trading as I think you will find as I am giving you enough notice {after 3 payments missed but will be only 2 by end of feb 08]to cancel and then i am still charge the cancelation fee . I think you will find this is not so

Regards

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Hopefully a moderator will be round soon to check out your letter. It sounds ok to me.

 

To be perfectley honest with the whole reposession has been going on for sometime. I do actually now feel it was the best thing to happen in my eyes as I managed to get the judge to accept a payment a lot less then Kensington would ever accept. I cant remember how long it took them to start with ourt but that wont go straight for eviction . It will take about six monthsof arrears I think but I am not 100% certain of this. Try to offer Kensington a lesser amount with a income and expenditure. If it does go to court and Kensington hasnt accepted your reasonable offer then this wont do Kensington any favours. As long as the debt can be repaid brfore the mortgage ends.

 

Other people on this forum have also had dealings with welcome. I take it you dont have ay PPI with either the mortgage or loan. I ask this as some loans have been paid upfront for PPI within the loan and people forget or do not realise they have them.

 

Also ask how much would your mortgage be on interest only for the time being. I know for a fact Kensington do charge for changing it but sometimes this can lower payments. As income support will pay this anyway you can then put the rest away in a high interest account.

 

Regards

Olive family

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HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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Contact the OFT - it is against their rules to charge for a 'debt manager' to come to you for mortgage arrears - wouldn't the money be better off paying towards the arrears rather than to somebody who basically is there to see that you are 'not living beyond your means' and are snooping to see if it is worth sending in bailiffs after a CCJ rather than reposession.

 

Mention this to Kensington and they will back off... it's 'just a standard letter' they will say. If you can RECORD every conversation with them as you can use this in court (should it come to that). Again, it is 'Not down to the Judge on the day of the hearing' to grant reposession - they can stop the process at any time but dont (or rather WONT).

 

 

I didnt realise this was illegal. Kensington done this to me. I currently have a complaint against Kensington at the moment with the FOS for negligence so I think this may be going on the list aswell. Thankyou

Next Directory £215 NO CCA ***WON***

 

Littlewoods Visa*** WON ***

 

Littlewoods evenmore£496.47 COURT CHARGES£296.84 PPI £575.52

Littlewoods LX £0.00 COURTCHARGES £327.68

Choices for you S.A.R owe £362.02

Additions Direct £1400 NO CCA

 

HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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hi thanks for ur reply i am on interest only mortgage and both welcome and kensington wont allow any insurance as i was self employed when i took both out . income support wont pay any towards mortgage until 39 weeks which will be oin sep08 so basically im up a gum tree so to speak i am going to see a solictor thhis week but thank u for taking the time to reply to me

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i have been reading on another forum regarding kensington that a debt manager just turned up and it was raining the guy would not allow him to come into the house and told him to go away until it stopped raining when the guy returned he went outside and said to the guy you dont away so if that happens to me ill do the same . especialy as i am going to send them tomorrow a recorded deliverly letter stating i do not want there debt manager here snopping at my home

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hi thanks for ur reply i am on interest only mortgage and both welcome and kensington wont allow any insurance as i was self employed when i took both out . income support wont pay any towards mortgage until 39 weeks which will be oin sep08 so basically im up a gum tree so to speak i am going to see a solictor thhis week but thank u for taking the time to reply to me

 

Sorry but this may sound like a daft question but when you say they wont allow insurance do you mean they wont allow you to make a claim or wouldnt allow you to take it out in the first place.

 

You are right by not allowing the Debt man in. Like you say you are gonna give KMC fair warning. Also keep note of any charges as when this is all over you may be able to claim them back. The same goes for the loan

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Littlewoods evenmore£496.47 COURT CHARGES£296.84 PPI £575.52

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Choices for you S.A.R owe £362.02

Additions Direct £1400 NO CCA

 

HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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hi first timer here,going to cab tomorrow to see what help i can get im also with kensington my husband had an accident at work last may and i told kensington 1 could only afford to pay 250-300 pound a month that was fine then just before christhas they wanted me to pay arreas off 600 pounds i couldnt so i said i wanted to add the arreas on to my mortgage thats fine they said then last month they tell me ive got one more chance to pay my full 423 pound a month mortgage and to do it for 3 months to capatialize apparently ive already had 2 chances didnt tell me that at the time also charging 50 pound a time when payment is late.kensington phone me 2 weeks ago and said i cant advice you but paying intrest only might be the solution but you need to pay up arreas ill send info never recived husband on incapacity benifit for another six month been applying for council houses been on the list for 2 years dur to hubby being a diabetic and not knowing what the future holds for him will my best option be to sell up before being repossesed?

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hi i have asked them abt time to sell they say no and if i do they would only give me 2 months which means i would have to really lower the house price and maybe would t have enough to pay them off. also some1 else told me they allowed them to sell but when it came to the people agreeing a price they then sent paper out for court so they had to stop the sale until the court hearing was over .that hast happened to me personal . but i think they just apply what they want when they can . im afraid im just gonna let them take me to court then go after them afterwards . good luck to u

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well i cant really tell u that . but im not going to pay simply because i cant

but i am going to put some money up then when i go to court i am going to explain to the court that i did offer money which i did do but they would only accept that for 2 months only . so if they would allow me any more than 2 months money at reduced rate. then they have asked me for £250 which is charges so far . why should i pay them any more . and still be in arreaers so if i save the money i can afford i can tell the judge this that i have x amount of money to pay and im wiling to pay but if they could just go a little to help then i could try and get on my feet once i can and hope this works . but im not saying u do this but its what im going do also if u are on low income or any benefits there is a legal aid site on the net who have really helped and advised me i hope u can work it out ok good luck

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hi sonic just one more thing dont deal with them over the phone do it by letter and tell them that. coz otherwise u have no proof . they are what i call devils of the trade. i also have put my name on the housing list im afraid there is not a lot more i can do .im like ur husband off work sick and its really hell when ur sick and have them keep at u

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hi first timer here,going to cab tomorrow to see what help i can get im also with kensington my husband had an accident at work last may and i told kensington 1 could only afford to pay 250-300 pound a month that was fine then just before christhas they wanted me to pay arreas off 600 pounds i couldnt so i said i wanted to add the arreas on to my mortgage thats fine they said then last month they tell me ive got one more chance to pay my full 423 pound a month mortgage and to do it for 3 months to capatialize apparently ive already had 2 chances didnt tell me that at the time also charging 50 pound a time when payment is late.kensington phone me 2 weeks ago and said i cant advice you but paying intrest only might be the solution but you need to pay up arreas ill send info never recived husband on incapacity benifit for another six month been applying for council houses been on the list for 2 years dur to hubby being a diabetic and not knowing what the future holds for him will my best option be to sell up before being repossesed?

 

Hi there,

 

I am currently paying £100 a monthntowards arrears and as you say £50 is alwatys going on top of the mortgage. I believe this has go to be wrong. Saying that though I am passionate at the moment about trying to find Kensington in the wrong for something. I have both a loan and a mortgage with these gangsters which are both in arrears.

Any way. Maybe this will help. Especially if we submit the same letter. I found this on the FSA website in the complaints section.

Challenging unfair terms in financial contracts

 

We can challenge firms that use unfair terms in their standardised customer contracts. Standardised customer contracts are contracts that haven’t been individually negotiated between the firm and you, the customer.

 

 

What might be an unfair term?

 

An unfair term may, for example:

  • allow the firm to change the terms of the contract, without telling you why or without giving you notice at the earliest opportunity so you can leave the contract immediately;
  • bind you to hidden terms;
  • inappropriately exclude or limit your legal rights; or
  • charge you a disproportionately large sum if you don’t fulfil any of your obligations under the contract.

These are just a few examples of terms that could be unfair. However, a term is not necessarily unfair just because it looks like one of these. It depends on the precise details of the contract as a whole. You can see some terms that we’ve found to be unfair at Product news.

 

 

What can we do?

 

We can investigate complaints about terms in the following types of financial services contracts:

  • mortgages and the selling of mortgages;
  • insurance and the selling of insurance;
  • bank, building society and credit union savings accounts;
  • pensions;
  • investments; or
  • long-term savings.

Once we’ve investigated a complaint and we think a term is unfair, we may ask the firm to stop using it and to change it. You can see some of the terms we’ve found to be unfair at Product news, so check it out.

If you think you have an unfair term in your contract, you can report it to us - see Reporting unfair contract terms.

 

 

What can't we do?

 

  • We can’t resolve individual disputes. You will need to complain to the firm - see Making a complaint.
  • We don’t have powers to compensate you if you have suffered loss because of an unfair contract term. Again, you will need to complain to the firm - see Making a complaint.

We don’t deal with complaints about contracts concerning personal loans, hire purchase, credit cards or other credit products. The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) deals with these. You can contact them through Consumer Direct – see Related links.

We can't assess the fairness of core terms unless the term is unclear. Core terms include terms that set out the price or the product or service being supplied.

 

 

I dont know if you guys agree but i believe this £50 a month charge when an arrangement has been made is an unfair term.

 

Regards

 

Olives

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HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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I am up for that. If we all write to FSA about this then they cant really ignore us can they.

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Littlewoods Visa*** WON ***

 

Littlewoods evenmore£496.47 COURT CHARGES£296.84 PPI £575.52

Littlewoods LX £0.00 COURTCHARGES £327.68

Choices for you S.A.R owe £362.02

Additions Direct £1400 NO CCA

 

HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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maybe we could include anyone who has had them say abt the debt manger i have noticed on royal mail they recieved my letter this morning so im now awaiting the fireworks to start

ive already had welcome on to me last night so kensington will just be another

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Defo, Let us know what is said about thsi DM. If they still send him or charge you either way then again that is well out of order. Just remember dont let him in and show him a copy the letter you sent with the proof of posting

 

They are the most unsympathetic company going and seem to pray on the most vulnerable. When we first started having problems i was so worried about my families health(my husband was off work for 6months ill and my daughter had been near on in hospital several times but needed alot of care at home). When they phoned I just couldnt think any more and offered them anything to make them go away for anouther month. I didnt even realise that we should of gone to court the first time. If i did then this would all have been sorted out in 2006. This is the type of people they are. Three of us on this thread so far have all got family health issues. It makes me so very angry. (sorry just had to sound of there)

 

If there is anybody who wants to join us then post.

 

I will compose a letter tomorow and post it on here to see what you think.

Next Directory £215 NO CCA ***WON***

 

Littlewoods Visa*** WON ***

 

Littlewoods evenmore£496.47 COURT CHARGES£296.84 PPI £575.52

Littlewoods LX £0.00 COURTCHARGES £327.68

Choices for you S.A.R owe £362.02

Additions Direct £1400 NO CCA

 

HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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hi its ok i sound off at times its called pressure . and sometimes we need to sound off. but kensington are a real nightmares i think if we could get enough people on here to stand up against this lot somethink will have to be done also i had another idea if everyone done letter others have been thru as well. i think somethink would be done and i know the judges hate this company .i also was speaking to someone rearding me being homeless she asked what company i was with when i told her . she went quite i said ustill there she said yes she was getting sick of hearing what this company are doing. and perhaps somethink should be done . so perhaps we should all be the ones to do it

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Couldnt sgree with you more. I also spoke to a solicitor and she told me she knew for a fact that both my local judges hated this company. Judges dont like sitting there listening to these guys going on and the other likes of us not knowing how to fight back. We know now. Lets spread the word. Watch out Kensington here we come !!!!!!!

Next Directory £215 NO CCA ***WON***

 

Littlewoods Visa*** WON ***

 

Littlewoods evenmore£496.47 COURT CHARGES£296.84 PPI £575.52

Littlewoods LX £0.00 COURTCHARGES £327.68

Choices for you S.A.R owe £362.02

Additions Direct £1400 NO CCA

 

HUBBY

Bank of Scotland Prefernce account £296

Capital One £300CHARGES£1135 TAKING COURT ACTION

 

also owe big to

Bank Of Scotland £10000 sending cca reqest

British Credit Trust £6000

 

Fighting For Family

MUm,***WON ***Barclays for hardship just need to get the last little bit. Chasing LLOYDS TSB for hardship

Bro, HBOS PPI mis selling ***WON***

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i think if enough of us stick together we will win over these crooks so kensington if ur watching what we are up too take warning its our turn now to slaughter u lot anyone interested join in

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