me v BCW and RW&C

[rdm2006]

Hi all,

 

I have been reading these threads now for a few days and i have decided to give it a go.

 

I will be sending two CCA's one for each of the above.

[cokezero]

Hi all,

 

I have been reading these threads now for a few days and i have decided to give it a go.

 

I will be sending two CCA's one for each of the above.

 

Go get them..but maybe, as I have found, you may find that sharing more info about the debts gets you great advice. You will find that others have already faced the journey you are about to take and their experiences and knowledge will be invaluable to you. last but not least your story would be the one that gives someone else the hope and motivation required.

 

But anyway good luck.

[rdm2006]

Go get them..but maybe, as I have found, you may find that sharing more info about the debts gets you great advice. You will find that others have already faced the journey you are about to take and their experiences and knowledge will be invaluable to you. last but not least your story would be the one that gives someone else the hope and motivation required.

 

But anyway good luck.

 

It is a very long and bitter story, which if given would be very easy for them to identify me, however, i will report all all future events as they happen.

 

I fully intend to inflict Consumer Revenge on the Perpetrators but only if it is legal and above board. :grin:

[cokezero]

It is a very long and bitter story, which if given would be very easy for them to identify me, however, i will report all all future events as they happen.

 

I fully intend to inflict Consumer Revenge on the Perpetrators but only if it is legal and above board. :grin:

 

Good maybe once you have exacted your (and ultimately our revenge) revenge you can post the scalps for us all to see:)

[rdm2006]

OK letters sent today and recorded delivery numbers have been written on the back of the cheques so if they cash them they can not say the letter was not received. just playing the waiting game now

[RFC1872]

OK letters sent today and recorded delivery numbers have been written on the back of the cheques so if they cash them they can not say the letter was not received. just playing the waiting game now

 

 

Just set your calender for 12 and then 30 days for any returns. Hope you have not sent them your signature - just when you said cheques sent? But the problem for the DCA's now are they getting true signatures I know some are getting others to sign their signatures if the copy and paste is widespred the DCAs are gonna get caught out and done for fraud - time will tell.

 

Have you sent SAR and CCA?

 

so good luck.

[rdm2006]

Only sent for CCA (SAR not required as yet). Also i am writing to original card company for CCA so if they say they dont have it and dca does then that will be odd......................

[spamheed]

Only sent for CCA (S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) not required as yet). Also i am writing to original card company for CCA so if they say they dont have it and dca does then that will be odd......................

 

Not necessarily.

 

If the debt has been sold to a DCA, then generally, any paperwork should go to the purchaser, so it would be quite normal for the DCA to have the paperwork and not the Original Creditor.

 

In many ways it is better to start with CCA- ing the DCA, then when they have returned the account to the OC, use the default to prevent any other DCAs from enforcing the debt

 

The CCA can be used as a tool to make a DCA prove that they have a right to collect the debt, and also that you are liable for the debt.

 

it makes the Original Creditor deal with their accounts properly and not just throw the account away when it is no longer profitable.

[rdm2006]

Not necessarily.

 

If the debt has been sold to a DCA, then generally, any paperwork should go to the purchaser, so it would be quite normal for the DCA to have the paperwork and not the Original Creditor.

 

In many ways it is better to start with CCA- ing the DCA, then when they have returned the account to the OC, use the default to prevent any other DCAs from enforcing the debt

 

The CCA can be used as a tool to make a DCA prove that they have a right to collect the debt, and also that you are liable for the debt.

 

it makes the Original Creditor deal with their accounts properly and not just throw the account away when it is no longer profitable.

 

 

surely The original company are still required to retain the info for up to 6 years ? If they have sent the dca the original paperwork and not copies then they are not complying with the law.

[rdm2006]

just looked on royal mail tracker and letters have been delivered today

[spamheed]

surely The original company are still required to retain the info for up to 6 years ? If they have sent the dca the original paperwork and not copies then they are not complying with the law. This would result in the unlikely scenario that all creditors selling a debt and legally transferring the CCA and letters of assignment etc to the new debt owner being in breach of the law

 

The Creditor (owner of the debt) must retain the original Credit Agreement, if the debt is sold, then the subsequent creditor is no longer the person who lent the money/services, but is now the "owner of the debt" and as such must retain the original documentation.

 

Given that you are requesting confirmation surrounding a "contract" it would seem more logical to request the information from the person(s) attempting to collect on the debt ie the DCA. My defence to your request would simply be - we sold the debt, there is no contract between us, we are not attempting to enforce the agreement. I would be able to substantiate this claim by producing the sale documentation. You would Lose!!

Any separate action surrounding the retention of documentation for the prescribed periods would be argued using the same facts.

 

The 6 year "rule" is for the retention of information, if the paperwork is transferred along with the debt prior to that date, then the assignment documents along with copies of the originals would be construed as compliance of their legal obligations in retaining all information for the prescribed period.

 

The other side of this line of thought might explain why so many creditors have recently defaulted on CCA requests by using computer scans and microfiche to store the CCA docs

[rdm2006]

It does not make sense to me that they are no longer required to keep the info as they may be required to prove that they sold the debt. However, i am not a legal guru so i will just say its a good job i wrote to the dca first then.

[spamheed]

Basically, the person claiming monies from you should be in possession of the original CCA, they are assuming the role of the creditor and should be equipped accordingly. If they don't have the documentation, they are obliged to seek it from the original creditor (all within the 12+2+30 deadlines) if they cant get it, they are stuck with an unenforceable debt

 

It would make more sense that if the documentation wasn't sent to the DCA by the Original Creditor, at the point of sale then depending how long ago the debt was sold, there is a chance that as the original creditor no longer has use for the document, it could well have been destroyed/disposed of.

 

always look on the bright side of life

 

Someone famous once said that!!!

[tomterm8]

Hm, you asked me to look into the thread. Technically, until the account is completly assigned (that is, rights and duties) the original creditor must provide the credit agreement, but the DCA must forward the request onto the original creditor.

 

However, Spamheed is entirely correct that the standard advice is to CCA the DCA rather than the original creditor. In practice, if the DCA want to collect they must put up or shut up. Plus, it has the benefit that it actually costs the DCA money to request the agreement from the original creditor. Finally, the DCA can't pretend not to know a credit agreement request has been made.

[spamheed]

Not necessarily.

 

If the debt has been sold to a DCA, then generally, any paperwork should go to the purchaser, so it would be quite normal for the DCA to have the paperwork and not the Original Creditor.

 

In many ways it is better to start with CCA- ing the DCA, then when they have returned the account to the OC, use the default to prevent any other DCAs from enforcing the debt

 

The CCA can be used as a tool to make a DCA prove that they have a right to collect the debt, and also that you are liable for the debt.

 

it makes the Original Creditor deal with their accounts properly and not just throw the account away when it is no longer profitable.

 

Thanks for confirming that Tom

[rdm2006]

so let me get this clear then - when the debt is sold the original company no longer need to hold any information about me no original document no statements nothing as it is has all been passed to the dca? - they do not have to keep the records for 6 years after passing it to the dca - this requirement is now passed to the dca along with the debt?

 

That seems odd but hey when has anything ever been straight forward :grin:

 

I have CCA'd the DCA first i was going to CCA the original Company also as a kind of back up but what is the point if they are not required to keep anything?

[spamheed]

so let me get this clear then - when the debt is sold the original company no longer need to hold any information about me no original document no statements nothing as it is has all been passed to the dca? - they do not have to keep the records for 6 years after passing it to the dca - this requirement is now passed to the dca along with the debt?

 

That seems odd but hey when has anything ever been straight forward :grin:

 

I have CCA'd the DCA first i was going to CCA the original Company also as a kind of back up but what is the point if they are not required to keep anything?

 

Just to clarify

 

The original documents should form part of any sale, these form part of the contract which was made when you took out the loan/credit card/etc. In a way it's similar to buying a car, you would expect all of the relevant documentation intact. the original creditor would keep copies of the information (not necesarilly the documentation) to show compliance with the relevant requirements.

 

If the debt is sold, the original documentation should go to the buyer, but the original creditor will continue to hold copies. it may seem pedantic but, the law not in all cases refers to the retantion of information, not the retenion of original documentation.

 

the creditor should hold the original signed agreement, it is this that they enforce and collect your money against.

 

Any previous owners will hold only information refering to the agreement

[rdm2006]

Ah - thats what i was saying they should still keep a copy for 6 years, sorry if i didnt put it in the right way. Glad that is sorted

[spamheed]

The CCA request is to get them to produce a copy of the original agreement, it is this that they would need to produce in court and what proves or disproves your liability for a debt.

 

ergo, asking the original creditor for the CCA after it has been sold would/should be pointless if they've done it properly. at best they'd only be able to give you a 2nd generation copy

[rdm2006]

That is quite true but going back to my original statement I have already asked the dca for a copy of the agreement, if i now ask the oc for a copy of their copy and the signature is missing from that but appears on the dca copy then that will be odd.

 

(It couldnt happen that way as my wife signed the cheque for my cca request from bcw and i signed the cheque for her request from rw&c - so they could not copy and paste as suggested in thread 6 - call me cynical but i had already thought of that!)

[rdm2006]

letter just rec'd from RC&W to say: -

 

"As a simple assignee from the original creditor we have acquired the rights but not the duties of the creditor as defined 189(1) of the cca 1974 and accordingly are entitled to pursue the customer for the monies that remain due by reason of section 136 of the law of property act 1925"

 

well at least they admit to being simple

[spamheed]

they are saying that they are not the creditor so don't have to provide you with the CCA.

 

If they aren't the creditor, how can you be the debtor?????

 

Don't you just love the Law of Property Act!!!

 

total bow larks

[rdm2006]

should i just ignore this and let them believe that they live in a world of their own and they make up the rules and can twist anything to read as though it is in their favour alone and just let them default when they can not produce the CCA.

[rdm2006]

well 12 days were up for both yesterday so just have to wait the rest now

[rdm2006]

re capone credit cards

 

ok Today i have received letters from the above one is an application form which (at the place of signature) says it is a credit agreement, it has no figures on it at all. The other says it is a Credit Card Account Agreement with terms and conditions and shows interest rates for purchases, balance transfers, etc but contains no other info (like credit limit etc) so i assume that these are not fully executed agreements and therefore unenforceable.

 

Is this correct?