PCN Issued for parking on single yellow in a CPZ

[luke123456]

So what else specifically can I provide instead of a delivery note?

 

Should I pay the £60 now? Or should I appeal to the adjudicator?

 

Guys I really do need your help as time is goin quick and im not great with this stuff as you can tell, and I also dont wanna pay them a penny belive me!

 

Thanks so much

[green_and_mean]

What was it you were actually loading or unloading?

[adamna]

Get whoever you were delivering to to verify that this was the case.

[luke123456]

??........A box of heavy stuff!!

 

What, a friend will do?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Luke,

 

The loading/unloading thing is a question of evidence. If you have evidence such as a signed and dated letter from a friend to/from whom you were delivering/collecting something that was large enough to require the use of a car to transport it, do you think that will carry more or less weight than any evidence of a PA who took no time to observe?

 

Don't worry about the conversations, it is not unusual for motorists to find out what exemptions may apply after investigation or not to realise what they need to be asking or looking for.

 

As far as process is concerned this is how it works:

 

1) PCN issued.

 

2) Optional and non-statutory - Motorist makes informal representations.

 

3) Optional and non-statutory - LA respond to informal representations.

 

4) LA issue NtO (Statutory requirement).

 

5) Owner responds to LA on NtO.

 

6) LA responds to owner which may be be Notice of Rejection if denied (Statutory requirement).

 

7) Owner has statutory right of appeal to independent adjudicator.

 

What I am saying appears to have happened to you is that the LA have combined the processes in 3) and 6) but 5) has not happened. They cannot do this, it is prejudicial.

 

I've thought about my earlier post and now I feel that you should appeal to the adjudicator in the way I have set out plus the bit on loading etc if it is relevant to you. What this will do is to crystallise the prejudice.

 

Even if you lose on this (and I don't think you will) I would request a review in the interests of justice.

[adamna]

 

What, a friend will do?

 

Well, yes, it is quite possible that they are your only witness.

 

In my case the LA didn't even want to see the evidence of my only possible witness (the passenger) as they said all it would do is reiterate what I had said, and they were sure that they were right, and I was lying. (This was a disceretionary decision) Duh? What are witnesses for? Needless to say I am not leaving it at that.

 

A witness is a witness, and we don't always have a choice as to who they are.

[pin1onu]

Well, yes, it is quite possible that they are your only witness.

 

In my case the LA didn't even want to see the evidence of my only possible witness (the passenger) as they said all it would do is reiterate what I had said, and they were sure that they were right, and I was lying. (This was a disceretionary decision) Duh? What are witnesses for? Needless to say I am not leaving it at that.

 

A witness is a witness, and we don't always have a choice as to who they are.

On the NPAS website it states the following "It is a criminal offence to “knowingly and wilfully” make an untrue statement in connection with an appeal to the Independent Adjudicator and at other stages in the enforcement process. Persons committing such offences risk conviction and a fine"

 

In these cases a witness is presumed to be telling truth. It is up to the LA to provide evidence that they are not. It doesn't matter if they are a family member, friend whoever. If the LA allege that the witness is lying without any proof they leave themselves open to be sued for defamation.

[adamna]

This was before adjudication in the rejection of representations. Of course because it was discretionary, adjudication has no remit to consider such matters....

[pin1onu]

This was before adjudication in the rejection of representations. Of course because it was discretionary, adjudication has no remit to consider such matters....

OK but they've put in writing an allegation that you are lying. If they can't substianate that allegation you could ask them to withdraw it and apologise. You could also seek damages (i.e. sting the merchant bankers for a few quid). :grin:

[patdavies]

I also notice from their letter of rejection that they only seem to regard parking as a contravention if the vehicle is left unattended - which is clearly a nonsense - it is sufficient that the vehicle is stationary.

[adamna]

OK but they've put in writing an allegation that you are lying. If they can't substianate that allegation you could ask them to withdraw it and apologise. You could also seek damages (i.e. sting the merchant bankers for a few quid). :grin:

What do you call substantiation? Damages currently stand at £20,000 without distress. I also want them to learn a lesson.

[pin1onu]

What do you call substantiation? Damages currently stand at £20,000 without distress. I also want them to learn a lesson.

They've called you a liar in this matter. Ask them to provide evidence that you have lied. If they can't then you have by short and curlies.

[adamna]

They think 1 photo of my vehicle (which I admitted was there) is enough to tell a very different story from the one that I maintain. They say their interpretation and conjecture is enough to disbelive what I said. Obviously it is complicated.

[green_and_mean]

I also notice from their letter of rejection that they only seem to regard parking as a contravention if the vehicle is left unattended - which is clearly a nonsense - it is sufficient that the vehicle is stationary.

 

I think the letter is meant to be addressing this instance where the vehicle was left unattended, not parking contraventions in general.

[luke123456]

Guys, need your help

 

I have been told I can send in another appeal to the council by the 1/03/08 or appeal to the adjudicator straght away. If I appeal to the council and loose, I will have to pay the full amount, or then appeal to adjudicator.

 

If I do not appeal to the council again, I can appeal to the adjudicator directly or pay the reduced amount. So either way if I do not pay the redued amount now I will have to pay the full amount if I loose any other appeal.

 

What do you guys think.

 

I spoke to the council, the member of staff on the phone was very helpful, I explained to him that on the PCN it says the attendant was ther from 16.20 to 16.20 so could not have seen me not unload stuff to a nearby house. Also abotu the lenght in time,that it took them (from september 07 to Jan 08) to reply to my appeal. He spoke to someone 'in the back' who has an input on appeal decisions and could give me an idea of whether or not another appeal to them would be successful. They told him they wont speak to me, and that they do not feel that they would cancel it as the PA has pics of my car. I told him I am not denying stoppin on a singl;e yellow.

 

He told me he would not be able to tell me what is written on the PA's notes, and wat is seen on the pics that the attendant took as they are with these people on the back.

 

Thee guy said I should check up to see if there si such a law about how long they have to respond to my appeal. I cant find one......?

 

He said they had a backlog,and that is why they took long, but he agreed with me thta it was noot good enough since we have a time limit to adhere to and even if we are dying in hospital they wouldnt care would they? So he said to look it up and suggested I appeal.

 

So Guys I have to the end of this week to reply to this.

 

Should I go to the council, it may look better if I go to adjudicator, right?

 

Should I go to adjudicator now straight away?

 

Either way I need to draft a good letter and guys I need your help witht that please.

 

Also, I have no delivery note.

What can I get? Can I get a statement from a witness? But can this be my friend?? What documentary evidence is best?

 

Thanks guys appreciated very much.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Luke,

 

I think you may have made a strategic mistake talking to the council, particularly if they made note of the call.

 

However, I still think that you should do what the law says after the issue of the notice of rejection and appeal to the ajudicator and make the allegation of prejudice I talked about before.

 

The question on witnesses has already been answered.

[luke123456]

Thanks bernie,

 

You said earlier;

''Failing that, and in any event, you tick the box "The penalty exceeds the relevant amount" because the LA have unlawfully prejudiced the appeal and enforcement process. As such the relevant amount is zero. They have done this because they have issued a "Notice of Rejection" before you have even issued a response to the Notice to Owner and before the time limit is up. This is simply not allowed and has prejudiced the entire statutory appeals process.''

 

But the NTO is dated the 10/01/08 and the notice of rejection is dated 09/02/08. So they have not issued the notice of rejection too soon, have they? 28 days ahd gone by........

 

I will try and get a statement from a friend who was with me in the car to back up my story but I cannot get any other proof, such as dleivery note or letter from the person living at hosue.....nothing but a lwtter from my friend, do you think that is enough?

[patdavies]

Thanks bernie,

 

You said earlier;

''Failing that, and in any event, you tick the box "The penalty exceeds the relevant amount" because the LA have unlawfully prejudiced the appeal and enforcement process. As such the relevant amount is zero. They have done this because they have issued a "Notice of Rejection" before you have even issued a response to the Notice to Owner and before the time limit is up. This is simply not allowed and has prejudiced the entire statutory appeals process.''

 

But the NTO is dated the 10/01/08 and the notice of rejection is dated 09/02/08. So they have not issued the notice of rejection too soon, have they? 28 days ahd gone by........

 

 

NO.

 

Their notice of rejection is a response to your informal appeal that was lodged prior to the service of the NtO.

 

They have not responded to a formal appeal arising from the NtO and thus have abrogated the entire timetable for enforcement.

[luke123456]

Hi thanks very much Patdavies for your reply,

 

I understnad you now....finally lol.

 

One more thing tho.

You said that as they have not responded to the NTO they have not stuck to the right process....

 

I was told to write in with a copy of the NTO (I still have the original with me) to say that I have not received a reply from my informal appeal yet. I said something like you havent made a decision on my appeal and you send me a NTO. You should make the decision first and cancel this NTO. Is that bad on me now???, as they may say that I asked them to cancel it?? And that is why they never answered the NTO. But i never sent a reply or made any mark on the NTO, the original is still with me at home. So what do you think in this respect?

 

Thanks guys. I will start to think about what i will write on the appeal.

 

Do you think I should appeal it? Tmorrow is my alst chance to pay the reduced amount.

[luke123456]

Anyone?

 

thanks

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I still think you should appeal to the adjudicator for the reasons I have outlined previously and with all the evidence you can accumulate.

 

It strikes me that the LA's handling of this has been a cluster f**k and I see little chance that they will be able to navigate their way out of it. Therefore, if I were in your shoes I wouldn't waste any more time with them.

[adampaddam]

The ticket given to you was an instant ticket despite what the PA has in their notebook, the proof or evidence should be on the PCN not the notebook. go to appeal, there may also be problems with the Notice of Rejection letter.

[pin1onu]

The ticket given to you was an instant ticket despite what the PA has in their notebook, the proof or evidence should be on the PCN not the notebook. go to appeal, there may also be problems with the Notice of Rejection letter.

Thats not strictly true. In Home Office guidance the PA's are encouraged to make notes about tickets issued (e.g. tax disc number so you can't deny that your car was not there) in their notebooks, so that they have a reference in the event of an appeal or representations being made.

[green_and_mean]

The ticket given to you was an instant ticket despite what the PA has in their notebook, the proof or evidence should be on the PCN not the notebook. go to appeal, there may also be problems with the Notice of Rejection letter.

 

 

There is no legal requirement to put any evidence on the PCN just the contravention and the time it occured.

[patdavies]

G&M is absolutely right. The minimum requirements for the contents if a PCN is to be judged valid are laid out in statute.

 

Anything else is 'fluff'.

 

The Council will present whatever other evidence that they have to the adjudicator in order to make their case - there is no obligation to produce it before that time.