PCN Issued for parking on single yellow in a CPZ

[luke123456]

Hi Guys

 

It is my first post here as you can see and it is about a PCN i got back in September 2007 for parking on a single yellow line on a Sunday.

 

I sent the appeal via email with pics to show that there were no time plates on anywhere on that road. Also to show there were metal posts on either side of the road which had no sign attached to them, just bare metal posts on the road. I was parked in the beginning/end of the road, basically near the corner.

 

I received no acknowledgement of the appeal.

 

I received a notice to owner 2 weeks ago saying I had not repsonded to the chance to pay the reduced fee so I must pay the double of £120.

 

I spoke to them, and explained that I still have not hear the outcome of the appeal. They said to send a copy of this notice to owner and a covering letter. I did this and that was 2 weeks ago.

 

Exactly 2 weeks after I did this I received a letter now saying that they apologise for the delay in replying to my 'informal representations'. What does this mean? Informal in terms of it not going to court, or informal in terms of my language....?

 

They have said that they reject my representations because the road is part of a the area's inner CPZ. This zone they say is enforced from 8am to 10pm. The restriction times and signs are apparently clearly displayed and marked on each entry time plate to the zone. They also say that there is no need foor additional time paltes for yellow lines as the yellow lines are governed by the hours of the controlled zone.

 

They say unless I was loading/unloading...and they give a max of 20 mins for this to happen. They also say that there must be a clear indication of such an operation in progress....now how can I get that...? lol.

 

I also wrote in the appeal how rude the attendant was when I asked why I was given this PCN. They made no reply to this.

 

They have just said right of appeal to adjudicator or pay reduced fine within 14 days or it doubles or then it triples!!

 

What do you guys think??

 

Isnt it meant to be cancelled as they made no reply to my appeal back in September?

 

I would really apprecitae your help.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post lol.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK you haven't got long.

 

Wash and scan both sides of the PCN and NTO.

 

On the face of it you have given nothing to say that technically you did not commit the contravention.

 

Informal reps atre those made prior to the issue of the NTO, however, you can allege that in failing to respond the LA have failed in their overriding duty to treat you fairly and therefore the "penalty exceeds the applicable amount" (one of the statutory grounds).

 

When we look at the PCN and NTO there may be flaws which give further grounds for appeal.

 

But you must respond to the NTO by the deadline. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

[luke123456]

Thanks for your reply Bernie.

 

I am afraid I dont quite understnad what you mean. Can you reword that please.

 

But you say I should respond to the NTO. I think that has expired now. But they say in this letter I have 14 days from the date of the letter (09/02/08) to pay the reduced amount of £60 or pay £120 before the end of 28 days from the 9th of feb. So no mention that I must stick to the NTO.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

What specifically don't you understand?

 

You got a PCN for £120.

You had the right to pay a dicounted £60 within 14 days.

You didn't do so and received a Notice to Owner. If you fail to respond to the NtO within 28 days of Service you should expect to get a Charge Certificate and the penalty will increase to £180.

 

I am encouraging you to respond within 28 days of service of the NtO.

 

You say you got it two weeks ago which means you only have two weeks left.

 

The "formal" appeal process does not start until you get the NtO, that is what the LA mean by "informal" - they were sent before the NtO.

 

Did you send your e-mail within the original 14 day discount period?

 

Informal reps have no status in law in that they are not contained in the RTA 1991 but the adjudicators have said that there is an overriding responsibility on LAs to treat motorists fairly and that a failure to respond to informal reps and a failure to maintain the discount where informal reps have been made in the discounted period may be seen as not adhering to this fundamental principle. But I see now they are giving you this discount.

 

A failure to treat the motorist fairly may invalidate the enforcement process for that PCN. Therefore the penalty will be nil.

 

But there may also be foul ups in the wording of the PCN or NtO. That is very likely. To establish this you need to scan and post copies of both sides but "wash" them first (ie remove personal identifiers ref nos etc).

 

There is no charge for the appeal. It is in two stages. Firstly to the LA and then to the Adjudicator. Only if you fail to meet the timescales or you fail to pay the penalty if the Adjudicator finds against you will the penalty increas further.

 

Hope that is clearer.

[luke123456]

OK thanks Bernie.

 

I will 'wash and scan' them now...lol.

 

I have just found out that the NTO has expired. It isi dated the 10.01.08 and I sent the council the copy fo the NTO and a covering letter on the 14/01/08 explaining that I have not even received a reply to the PCN appeal made in september 2007.

 

I recceived the reply to the appeal today, dated the 09/02/08.

 

But again as I said, the letter states that I have 28 days from the 9th. No mention of the NTO.

 

Im scanning that stuff now.

[luke123456]

Also I dont know if htis amkes a difference but the PCN was not fixed to my window with the sticky stuff at the back of the envelope. Just put under the windscreen wiper.

[luke123456]

Yes I did send the appeal by email within 14 days.

 

I have scanned in that stuff how do I attach them here? I can onlly see a way of uploading an image on the net, how do I upload it when it is saved to my computer.

[Michael Browne]

Open an a/c on Photobucket, download them there fron your computer and then post the link from Photobucket in your thread here.

 

See how to in post #15 here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

[luke123456]

 

 

 

[luke123456]

Thanks so much Michael!

[luke123456]

I've uploaded the PCN and NTO as you said Bernie.

Would appreciate someone to have a look as time is tickin by...

 

thanks

[patdavies]

There is a potential for prejudice in the NtO

 

Under grounds (b) it stated that a delivery note is required for claims of loading/unloading - this is simply not true.

[luke123456]

In the letter I got yesterday which they say they do not accept my appeal they said the same thing which is that If I was loading/unloading, then 'there must be a clear indication of such an operation in progress'.

[adamna]

It says 'such as' not that a delivery note is required. Obviously a delivery note is ideal, but not the only thing. I've had a letter from a shop owner accepted in the past.

[luke123456]

If only I could get one lol.

[green_and_mean]

On the PCN no observation period is given, I would ask for a copy of the PAs notes to see if any was given without this it would be difficult for the Council to say loading did not take place, (which is why most Councils observe for 3-5 mins before giving a PCN.

[luke123456]

Yes youa re right it says from 16:20 to 16:20 but......when do I ask for the PA's notes? Do I write to the council? they have said I must appeal to the adjudjicator now or pay up. What do you guys reckon I must do, do I have to pay first no matter what?

[green_and_mean]

Have you lost the 50% discount period? If so appealing costs nothing and you only pay when/if you lose. If you still have the option of the discount the choice is yours pay up or gamble on the appeal.

 

I've just remembered that you got the NTO so you will lose nothing by appealing as the discount period has passed.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Luke,

I'm struggling here - unless your claim is that you were loading/unloading and the PA did not take time to check - and you will need evidence that you were (delivery note is not essential despite what the LA say).

Can you also post the letter you got which is maintaining the discount at present?

[luke123456]

Well What proof do I need that I was loading/unloading if you say a delivery note is not essential.

 

I have scanned the letter which refused my appeal.

 

Yes I have 14 days from the 09/02/08 to pay the reduced amount of £60. Can I appeal to the adjudicator, and then if that appeal is refused am I still able to pay £60, or will it be £120.

 

Thanks

[luke123456]

Here you go.

 

 

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK here's what I would go for in your shoes:

 

Can you produce evidence that you were loading/unloading? eg a witness statement from a friend that you were delivering/collecting something large and bulky for which a car was essential. The PA took no time to assess whether of not loading/unloading was taking place. So if this is true you have grounds for ticking the box "The contravention did not occur".

 

Failing that, and in any event, you tick the box "The penalty exceeds the relevant amount" because the LA have unlawfully prejudiced the appeal and enforcement process. As such the relevant amount is zero. They have done this because they have issued a "Notice of Rejection" before you have even issued a response to the Notice to Owner and before the time limit is up. This is simply not allowed and has prejudiced the entire statutory appeals process.

 

For good measure include the other suggestions posted eg by Pat Davies.

 

Basically I think the LA have stuffed themselves on this one. They have circumvented the formal appeal to the LA.

 

You are quite lucky as I thought the PCN and NTO were pretty good, but I just love it when LAs do this!

 

I really don't think that you can lose this but there are no certainties and if you do you will have to pay the £120.

 

What I don't know is whether to go straight to the adjudicator or to the LA first. My instinct is the adjudicator but see what others say.

[luke123456]

Hey thanks for that,

 

You said;

 

''Can you produce evidence that you were loading/unloading? eg a witness statement from a friend that you were delivering/collecting something large and bulky for which a car was essential. The PA took no time to assess whether of not loading/unloading was taking place. So if this is true you have grounds for ticking the box "The contravention did not occur".

 

I never mentioned that I was loading/unloading in my original appeal, becasue I only mentioned that there were no time plates. But, I can say that I never thought about that firstly... that would be ok??

 

Also, getting a statement from a friend, would they really accept that? I mean being my friends, it is not really very 'independent' is it? I can make up any stoy cant I....like carrying a box of small metal appliances and the main road is busy and there is no parking so I had to get to the shops from behind, or should I stick to a residential home?

 

Also you said;

 

Failing that, and in any event, you tick the box "The penalty exceeds the relevant amount" because the LA have unlawfully prejudiced the appeal and enforcement process. As such the relevant amount is zero. They have done this because they have issued a "Notice of Rejection" before you have even issued a response to the Notice to Owner and before the time limit is up. This is simply not allowed and has prejudiced the entire statutory appeals process.

 

I was told to write in with a copy of the NTO to say that I have not received a reply from my appeal yet. I cant remember as im not at home now but I said something like you havent made a decision on my appeal and you send me a NTO. You should make the decision first and cancel the NTO. I will double check later. But would that have been bad on my side, as they may say that I asked them to cancel it. But i never sent a reply or made any mark on the NTO, the original is still with me at home. So what do you think in this respect?

 

Sorry, but do you think there is any grounds to say that they received my appeal in september 07 then sent me an NTO in Jan 08, so have they broken any time limit? They give us a time limit of 14/28 days, surely there must be a time limit that they must abide too??

 

What do you mean by;

 

''They have circumvented the formal appeal to the LA''

 

The LA has said in the letter I have just scanned (above) that I must not appeal to them. Is that right?

 

Thanks very mcuh bernie, much appreciated.

[patdavies]

It says 'such as' not that a delivery note is required. Obviously a delivery note is ideal, but not the only thing. I've had a letter from a shop owner accepted in the past.

 

No it doesn't. It says "such as a delivery note" as an example of documentation. It then goes on to say "(required for claims of loading or unloading)". This is prejudicial as there is no requirement for a delivery note in such circumstances; either in law or PATAS/NPAS previous cases.

 

Actually, the very fact that we have seen this to mean different things demonstrates the potential for prejudice.

[adamna]

I see your point!