RBS becoming "inventive" with your documents?

[cbradley257]

Hello

 

Does anyone have the correct address for RBS PPI complaint department ?

 

Thanks very much

[JonCris]

That's pretty much what I was getting at. No bank (or other lending organisation) can unilaterally change a credit agreement after signing, that would seem to be basic contract law.

 

What they can do is recreate the original loan agreement using the terms and conditions in force at the time of signing to produce a replica of the original.

 

It seems sensible to keep your personal copy of the agreement in a safe place until the loan is cleared, which is why the CCA requires all lenders to provide one within 7 days of drawdown. That way there can be no doubt and the banks can't "move the goalposts" after the game has started.

 

That would be totally illegal and morally reprehensible.

 

Quite! it would. What would be the response of your RBS contacts if told a bank had done precisely that namely recreated agreements using later & much more erroneous T's & C's

[JonCris]

Also ricky can your contacts explain what a 'router' account is, is it for example used to enhance the banks balance sheet, thereby assets, by increasing the level of consumer debt & if not what is it's use I'm puzzled

[rickyd]

JonCris - my closest contact would probably throw up his hands in horror! In the lower echelons of most banks the workers are not well paid and have no input into the procedures and policies they work with. Most of those I know are very sympathetic to customer complaints but hamstrung by "rules" that prohibit them giving refunds. I would assume that there are those that make genuine errors and other who, for whatever reason, do break lending rules. If reputational risk is at stake, the senior management should be ensuring that credit policy is enforced otherwise they leave the bank open to FSA investigations, fines bad publicity and disciplinary action.

 

I'm not familiar with the term "router a/c" and my contacts can't help on this one either. My understanding is that financial institutions books are based on contract value and the total lending book includes the value of mortgage, overdraft and loan facilities and but specifically excludes charges and penalties. Interest from lending is counted as income and varies daily whereas term facilities are more stable so can be used as a measure of business written. For example, the balance of an overdraft can be quantified but it could be repaid tomorrow so any income would end overnight.

 

cbradley257 - According to the RBS website the contact point for loan queries is 0800 121 121, for making complaints you could Write to the Customer Relations Manager , The Royal Bank of Scotland, Freepost ,PO Box 1727, Edinburgh , EH12 9JN or Call - 0800 015 5035. They may refer you to a branch first but hang in there!

[JonCris]

Thanks - so what your saying is that the amount of loans which includes interest WILL count as income therefore the higher interest the greater the income - If this is the case then one one must assume any bonuses employee payments etc will be influenced by this enhanced income/profit - is that correct:)

 

PS the 'back' office at Telford know ALL about router accounts & their problem is that now so do we;)

Edited April 28, 2009 by JonCris

[yourbank]

Thanks - so what your saying is that the amount of loans which includes interest WILL count as income therefore the higher interest the greater the income - If this is the case then one one must assume any bonuses employee payments etc will be influenced by this enhanced income/profit - is that correct:)

 

PS the 'back' office at Telford know ALL about router accounts & their problem is that now so do we;)

 

Profit related pay has gone JC so if the bank makes a profit their employees will get 0% however the 10% pay rise this year might have helped eased that blow

[rickyd]

No JonChris I'm not. The interest counts as income, the loan is simply a return of capital originally lent. Most big bank's profits come from mortgages and business lending which is for bigger sums of money and last far longer. They also tend to be base rate related whereas the greater proportion of personal lending tends to be fixed rate. If the base rate and LIBOR rise during the term of a fixed rate loan, the income drops therefore cannot be guaranteed.

 

There's also the fact that few staff selling loans have any say in the rates charged so they have little impact on their own bonuses (what bonuses?). the real decisions are made by the bank executives whose bonuses are the stuff of many press articles over recent months. (My RBS contact received a 3.4% pay rise and no bonus this year despite arranging £10M of mortgages ensuring a decent level of income for years to come) his salary and those of most of his colleagues is far lower than you will imagine - I was stunned when he told me!

[JonCris]

Profit related pay has gone JC so if the bank makes a profit their employees will get 0% however the 10% pay rise this year might have helped eased that blow

 

Thanks I was thinking more about executives salaries & share values which if increased would enable the banks to raise more money on the markets

[yourbank]

No JonChris I'm not. The interest counts as income, the loan is simply a return of capital originally lent. Most big bank's profits come from mortgages and business lending which is for bigger sums of money and last far longer. They also tend to be base rate related whereas the greater proportion of personal lending tends to be fixed rate. If the base rate and LIBOR rise during the term of a fixed rate loan, the income drops therefore cannot be guaranteed.

 

There's also the fact that few staff selling loans have any say in the rates charged so they have little impact on their own bonuses (what bonuses?). the real decisions are made by the bank executives whose bonuses are the stuff of many press articles over recent months. (My RBS contact received a 3.4% pay rise and no bonus this year despite arranging £10M of mortgages ensuring a decent level of income for years to come) his salary and those of most of his colleagues is far lower than you will imagine - I was stunned when he told me!

 

The 10% pay rise "does not apply to Executive, Senior Manager, Manager or any employee of GBM(global Banking and Markets) globally" to quote the bumph from RBS HR. Or should I say his Value account has risen 10% so if he takes it all in CASH it is equivalent to a 10% pay rise.

[yourbank]

Thanks I was thinking more about executives salaries & share values which if increased would enable the banks to raise more money on the markets

In that case I can tell you that they got a £0.00 pay rise. That is the Board, all Executives, and Global Banking and markets(GBM) globally. I have it in black and white in front of me.

[rickyd]

thanks for that, you seem to have your finger right on the RBS pulse!

[yourbank]

thanks for that, you seem to have your finger right on the RBS pulse!

Sacked from the group February 2009 after 10 and a half years in the organisation and benefitted from the 10% pay rise as it was backdated to 1st January 2009.

[rickyd]

really sorry to hear that, or that you're not alone in being sacked. Is this you becoming a "Poacher turned Gamekeeper" ?

[yourbank]

really sorry to hear that, or that you're not alone in being sacked. Is this you becoming a "Poacher turned Gamekeeper" ?

I've been in the bank charges campaign since June 2006. Normally post on other forums under the name "natweststaffmember". I know the good, the bad and the damn ugly. I would love to say more, but this is not the time for saying things especially on this thread.

[Sparkie1723]

Included in rickyd's post is..

"I'm not familiar with the term "router a/c" and my contacts can't help on this one either."

 

Exactly the RBS have stated that the public is not meant to be aware of these "Router Accounts"...I have had two explanations so far of what a £ Router Account is.....Paul W. was given another explanation in hios Court proceedings ...(different to the explanations I was given of course) now in the latest correspondence he has from RBS they naow now given him another completely different expalanation that bears no resemblance to all the 0ther 5 explanations.

 

Is is any wonder the lower bank personal haven't a clue what they are........I know what they are and will be puting my explanation of what they are to Mr Hemsley in front of my MP at the forthcoming meeting I will be having with Mr Hemsley.

sparkie

[rickyd]

can you give me the snapshot explanation? I will pass this onto my pal. Hopefully he can have a discrete look from inside the bank and let me know what the internal line is on these things.

[Sparkie1723]

can you give me the snapshot explanation? I will pass this onto my pal. Hopefully he can have a discrete look from inside the bank and let me know what the internal line is on these things.

I am of the belief that no-one outside CMS Telford are able to access these Router Accounts or the programs that run them I am certain that you would need a special password to access them....that is why they have been kept "secret" for such a long tim e. the existence of these accounts were only discovered of late, but they have been in existence for over 10-12 years I have two programs that ran my Router Account these two programs ran two "Book Debts for one account.

 

I could tell you much more but would take up too much space.

 

sparkie

[JonCris]

can you give me the snapshot explanation? I will pass this onto my pal. Hopefully he can have a discrete look from inside the bank and let me know what the internal line is on these things.

 

I would love to give you a more detailed explanation - unfortunately at the moment I can't - I believe I know their purpose but there is a meeting about to take place which may throw some more light on their true purpose - however any info you can glean in the meantime will be most appreciated

[paulwlton]

can you give me the snapshot explanation? I will pass this onto my pal. Hopefully he can have a discrete look from inside the bank and let me know what the internal line is on these things.

 

 

Could your pal do me a favour as I need to know the amount of interest which would have been charged by RBS on £375.31 from the 14 Sept to 01 Oct 1998 on an unauthorised overdraft.

 

Paul

[Khadzay]

Hi folks,

 

Take a deep breath

 

I have now received my CCA from RBS, however, Im concerned with its content and format, firstly I asked for the original signed true copy, what they have sent me is a a photocopy, faxed agreement, with my signature on one of the sheets, which is the Customer duty of care form, (which I guess is not the loan agreement. I have also received a front sheet describing loan amount interest charged what I should expect to pay back, however the worrying thing about this is, its in a different format, the next page describes the terms and conditions which I cannot read at all with no date on there , the more worrying point is, the signature is different to the duty of care form, the only time I used this signature( and this was deliberate), when I last corresponded with them intialling it SP (signtature format) whereas my first name starts with S and surname I.

 

I know I have gone on a bit here, but I smell a HUGE rat, can someone PLEASE help

[paulwlton]

Hi folks,

 

Take a deep breath

 

I have now received my CCA from RBS, however, Im concerned with its content and format, firstly I asked for the original signed true copy, what they have sent me is a a photocopy, faxed agreement, with my signature on one of the sheets, which is the Customer duty of care form, (which I guess is not the loan agreement. I have also received a front sheet describing loan amount interest charged what I should expect to pay back, however the worrying thing about this is, its in a different format, the next page describes the terms and conditions which I cannot read at all with no date on there , the more worrying point is, the signature is different to the duty of care form, the only time I used this signature( and this was deliberate), when I last corresponded with them intialling it SP (signtature format) whereas my first name starts with S and surname I.

 

I know I have gone on a bit here, but I smell a HUGE rat, can someone PLEASE help

 

There are rumours now that certain creditors are not only recreating but copying and pasting sigs.

 

Are you able to post up what you've recieved.

 

PW

[Khadzay]

Once Ive figured how to do it, yeah sure no problem, in the meantime Im sure the phone calls from APex Credit Mgt (DCA) will start,

[rickyd]

Re the overdraft interest, there isn't an easy way to calculate this as its compounded on the outstanding balance but we believe the unauthorised rate is 29% or thereabouts and the interest would be added to the account each month. So if someone's handy with excel they could probably figure it out, but I'm guessing the monthly admin fee would be added for each month the authorised limit was exceeded. Obviously this will throw the figures way off.

 

You are entitled to ask for historic statements of course, but I believe they are are only obliged to provide the past 6 years, inline with most financial records.

 

The loan agreement is a different story. If you believe that its not your signature you really need to bring this to the bank's attention as a possible fraud. The tricky part will be proving that you didn't benefit from the funds and that you don't recognise their loan agreement, especially if you have signed a duty of care form. This form will have the headline loan details and will be able to tie you to the funds. The fact that they can't provide the actual original document would only be useful if the loan was brand new. There is case law on this and IIRC the decision in favour of the finance company was based on the fact that the claimant had "enjoyed the financial benefit and made repayments over a period sufficient not to be able to claim lack of knowledge of the loan" or something similar. It seems to suggest that you have to prove this is a mystery to you rather than them proving you have an obligation.

 

If it was a standard rather than bespoke loan, the bank only has to prove what their lending terms, interest rates and penalties were at the time it was taken out, to show that your's is a typical example. I'll bet they can provide thousands of other loan agreements from that period to back this up.

 

If was a "tailored loan" things are rather less clear cut as each agreement is different and they would need to show exactly what had been agreed for you. The key words are Fixed Rate or Personal Loan. Bespoke loans are called either Flexible Term loan or Personal Term Loan.

 

Its a bit like a garage selling a car model at £10,000 but you came to an arrangement to get the same model for £8,000. You would need to show why your's wasn't the same price. Or the other way around you paying £15,000. They would need to show why you had been charged more.

 

Hope this helps.

[Dipply75]

Had a reply from RBS that they could not find my CCA but they've also stated that they do not have enough details in the system to enable them to re-create the agreement.

 

Then I get a default notice sent through which they appear to have mixed up my details with someone elses on the default notice, amount of arrears way wrong etc. I called them to get to the bottom of it *sigh* and was told woops, just a mistake. He told me to shred it and I said thats fine anyway, the default notice wouldn't stand as the details are mostly wrong the advisor went nuts at me!

 

Honestly, shouted at me, told me he was cancelling my cards and accounts right now if I want to get 'technical' so will they and just take whatever I owe them right now out my account!

 

I still think there is more too it...one advisor suddenly went all Ironside on me when I asked if there WAS another Natwest account in my name - "whether you have or don't have one is not for me to say, I can't talk about both companies in the one phone call, its cross branding" eh?

 

Sorry for the rant but am angry and more than a little suspicious. Anyone know if I put a SAR to RBS group will I get everything RBS and NATWEST etc or would it be £10 to each seperately?

[JonCris]

Dipply as a long standing member of CAG please tell me you recorded them