Library fines/Penalties

[Pen]

Hi everyone. Just out of interest. I have a friend at university who has just paid £280 in uni library fines, each one is £20 a time. Ok I know he's daft for letting them mount up so much but was surprised about the amount they can charge. Could these fines be classed as unlawful.

 

Pen

[Michael Browne]

I have a friend at university who has just paid £280 in uni library fines, each one is £20 a time.

I assume this £20 per book is not because they were 1 day late, rather a daily amount built up over a long period of time.

 

Could these fines be classed as unlawful.

 

I very much doubt it. After all they are providing a service, for free, and all he had to do to avoid any fines was return them or renew them before the due date. It could be argued that the 'fines' are a daily hire charge beyond the initial free period.

[Pen]

Hi Micheal, yes they were for a set period of time But I would argue that the amount is unfair compered with chargers to local government libraries. I think although I am not sure the Uni chargers £2,00 a day compered to 20p a day.

 

As I have said I am not sure of the amounts not being in this position myself but I do know that their fees/Penalties are way in excess of our local branches and since universities are still part funded by government in places should the fines not be the same amount??

 

How can government bodies say what they charge is a fair rate but anyone else can charge what they want. I am not talking about a video lending libary that's is something which works by a completely different set of rules.

[Michael Browne]

I really don't see that you can argue that any fine, no matter how high, is unfair, when it is easy to avoid and get a valuable service for nothing.

 

i don't like paying library fines any more than anybody else, but if I can't be bothered to take them back on time (or

[Michael Browne]

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[Pen]

yes I agree he was a idiot for not taking them back on time but that's not the issue I am talking about. I am not interest in morals!. banks called there chargers fines/Penalty's fees etc it was argued that well maybe if we had not spent against money we did not have then that's our fault, simmiler principle however what I am arguing against is the cost being 7 days over drawn on a book which may cost a fiver. Then haveing to pay £14 penalty fee and give back the book. Somehow, well to me anyway seems a tad unfair. also as we all know to our cost it's not always easy to get the books back on time just like it's not always easy to stay within the red.

 

There has been cases were that libary could be 300 miles from the students home address and they have just forgotten to return then during half term. 1 book is not to bad but most students have 9 plus which works out at being a very hefty penalty and a very good earner for the university.

[tomterm8]

Well, you are entitled to bring it to court but you would need to do a substantial amount of research, since libraries are regulated under an entirely different strand of law than bank contracts.

 

Basically, it would take dozens of hours of legal research to get an answer, and I suspect the answer would likely be consistant with what Michael says.

 

Edit: doing a bit of research, for public libraries the situation is regulated by Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 s8; the regulations made under the act allow libraries to charge for materials returned late, and leave it at the discretion of the library authorities . University libraries would be regulated by different law, which I can't track down at the moment

[Pen]

Hi Tomtom.

Yes I think I tend to agree. I have been reading up on it today and it seems to be not only a minefield but a global issue. In America for instance they have had the same discussion and as a consequence some libraries have done away with fines altogether and their research has shown that they get more books back ha don't know how that works??/ Funny enough I found quite a large thread on Martin Lewis Money forum, mainly contributed to by students obviously but an interesting discussion no less.

Thanks Micheal.

[BigNick2]

I had a thought about this recently, had to pay out a £10 for a few late books to my local library. Got no probs paying it though as its my own fault for returning books late and its a small amount of money for a serverely underfunded public service.

 

£200+ is a different kettle of fish to £10 though, especially for a student.

 

I read a post in the parking fines forum that reffered to the 1689 Bill of Rights stating that only a court can impose fines (He was successful in getting out of paying the fine). Googled it myself and thats the impression I got. Obviously wouldnt take that as gospel, and wouldnt even know if it applies.

 

Any legal-eagles comment on this?

[tomterm8]

I had a thought about this recently, had to pay out a £10 for a few late books to my local library. Got no probs paying it though as its my own fault for returning books late and its a small amount of money for a serverely underfunded public service.

 

£200+ is a different kettle of fish to £10 though, especially for a student.

 

I read a post in the parking fines forum that reffered to the 1689 Bill of Rights stating that only a court can impose fines (He was successful in getting out of paying the fine). Googled it myself and thats the impression I got. Obviously wouldnt take that as gospel, and wouldnt even know if it applies.

 

Any legal-eagles comment on this?

 

Unfortunatly, I think you will find that the The Library Charges (England and Wales) Regulations 1991 (No. 2712) made by the secretary of state for wales under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 s8 entitle public library authorities to set charges 3 (2)

©

in respect of borrowed library material or library apparatus which is returned late

 

and gives library authorities the discretion to set the amount of the charge.

 

And, of course, the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 is rather more recent than the Bill of Rights.

[BigNick2]

Unfortunatly, I think you will find that the The Library Charges (England and Wales) Regulations 1991 (No. 2712) made by the secretary of state for wales under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 s8 entitle public library authorities to set charges 3 (2)

©

in respect of borrowed library material or library apparatus which is returned late

 

and gives library authorities the discretion to set the amount of the charge.

 

And, of course, the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 is rather more recent than the Bill of Rights.

 

You dont learn if you dont ask

 

Picking up a wee bit of legal knowledge reading this site but this is something thats been confusing me: If there's 2 pieces of legislation/law/statutes that conflict how does it get decided which is used?

[tomterm8]

The more recent law will override the older law, as long as they are both primary legislation (i.e. act of parliament). However, european law will often override UK law, and international law / treaties may also override european law and/or british law in some circumstances.

 

If a piece of secondary legislation (i.e. statutory instruments etc) conflicts with primary legislation, the primary legislation will normally win.