Into the crystal ball...

[BigNick2]

Whats the betting that in the next couple of weeks the banks propaganda machine comes out with a study to show that xx amount of jobs wll be lost in the banking sector if they are forced to repay charges, in the wake of an OFT victory.Something like this could shift public opinion.

[Guest wino]

Well they can't afford to loose any cashiers. The queues are bad enough especially at lunch times.

[BigNick2]

Well they can't afford to loose any cashiers. The queues are bad enough especially at lunch times.

 

Tell me about it!

[alecmac18]

"Whats the betting that in the next couple of weeks the banks propaganda machine comes out with a study to show that xx amount of jobs wll be lost in the banking sector if they are forced to repay charges, in the wake of an OFT victory."

 

Too true.....Most of the press coverage to date hasn't even been very detailed. Far too many reporters will just pull comments out of the PR email the recieve and build a story around it. Unfortunately there are a number of financial PR firms that seem to have been geared up to pump out as much drivvle as possible to journos...Accenture springs to mind....but there are others.

 

If they use that argument I hope that it will be ridiculed. We'd save far more jobs over far more sectors in the UK by dropping the charges completely....will british gas have to lay off workers because there is a rise in late payments? Will SKY?, Will Tesco?, Will HMV and Topshop? You can't put back into the economy what you don't have. I don't think it'll be that long before you get retailers railing against bank charges.

 

Retail banking is the biggest cash cow there is.....and the cold hard fact is that banks need us to deposit our money with them...we dont actually NEED banks as much as they need us......when you put your cash into a bank you are actually giving them an unsecured loan which the governemt then guarantees to the value of £35k.......to say that they NEED an extra £35 whenever they feel like it is bonkers........but sadly that is the situation we are in.

[dave]

How I wish for a return of the Wages Act (pre 1986 when it was changed)!

 

I'd take my money in cash each month, keep it under the bed in a shoebox and take my chances with the honest theives!

[alecmac18]

"and take my chances with the honest theives!"

 

Sigh...

 

Thieves were honest once.......at least they didn't try and tell you that they were just taking the money away as a 'service'

[BigNick2]

Lol yea, so much for honour amongst thieves!

 

There was talk of a cashless society in the near future. Wonder if there's been an increase in cash transactions over the last year or 2 with consumers trust in the banks being demoralised.

[dave]

I do everything in cash now - I have no DDs, no SOs and I don't have a cheque book.

 

I only wish I wasn't reliant on them to have my wages paid into a bank account, then I wouldn't even use a cashpoint.

 

...and I'm more than a little annoyed that it's not MY choice how I receive my wages - after all, it is I that earned them.

 

People talk of the 'security' issue. Well, the odds of having your money nicked from your house are a lot less than the odds of having them nicked by a bank, IMO. I've never been burgled, yet I have had money taken from me by banks before I can even get to it.

 

I've also never had a burglar send my personal data to someone else.

 

It's about time the Wages act was reverted to the way it was prior to 1986 in my opinion.

[renegotiation]

The old chestnut of power and corruption rings true here. The banks got so far they probably half believe their own tripe. We needed Dave in his leotard a few years sooner! :) I 'still' can't believe it's going to court. They've been found out with their hands in the cookie jar and they still got the balls to feign innocence! It might be funny if it wasn't so sick. As for thievery, what sort of example do the banks set for the rest society? So many people seem out to rob each other nowadays. It IS getting worse, not some nostalgia thing. Morality works top down, not bottom up.

[alecmac18]

"They've been found out with their hands in the cookie jar and they still got the balls to feign innocence! It might be funny if it wasn't so sick."

 

[dave]

I agree.

 

And personally, I blame the banks for the incredibly bad levels of service we get in this country too.

 

Try and get a bank to do ANYTHING, and they will cock it up - and their cock up will result (usually) in them getting more money.

 

Thinking about it, do you know, I don't think I've EVER had a dealing with a bank where there hasn't been a cock up of some sort or other.

 

I've tried to change bank accounts in November - Ha! some such hope - the new bank said "We'll arrange everything for you" - I now have 2 default notices on my doorstep because of broken promises from that bank.

 

Things didn't get paid, and somehow it's my fault for believing what the new bank had told me.

 

Also, it started with the banks. Insurance companies were next - "take the money, it doesn't matter if we ever answer the phone or do anything to keep up our end of the bargain"

 

I know this, as I was living in 4 different houses over 4 months while my house was flooded.

 

When my parents house was flooded (and subsiquently subsided) in the 80's - it was sorted quickly and efficiently.

 

No longer.

 

Try and take something back to a shop that doesn't work as it should - they'll fob you off with telling you to waive your rights and send it to the manufacturer etc...

 

All I ever wanted to do was pay a fair price for a fair service (or goods) - these days it seems you have to fight for that in the UK.

 

I used to have a house in France (And BF will disagree with me on this point, I'm sure), but the water wasn't working.

 

I did what any self respecting Englishman would do, and went to the pub to think about what to do next.

 

The owner of the bar heard our conversation about it, and came over and in pidgeon English (not helped by my pidgeon French TBH) "You have a problem with the water? Leave it to me."

 

He phoned the water company and said "they will be here in 15 minutes."

 

Of course I didn't believe that (being used to the 'we'll be there between 8am and 6pm a week next Tuesday', but THEY DID TURN UP - early to be honest.

 

Sorted out the water - which was in fact, the fault of our friends who had borrowed the place - and DIDN'T CHARGE a penny for it.

 

I just cannot see that happening in this country any longer.

[BigNick2]

Think we've got to ask ourselves what exactly we expect from business in a capatalist economy.. Dave I agree 100% with every point you made there (although I personally couldnt comment about issues in France). We have an ecomonic system which is based on a drive for profit. As it's evolved we're getting more and more examples of companies behaving badly, if not outright unlawfully. Some might argue its the prevelance of the internet bringing this behaviour to our attention. I disagree; I may only be 23 but I still notice a massive difference in service from pretty much every company I deal with between now, and when I was in my teens.

 

The more I think about it, the more I come to blame capitalism as an ideology. As a society we put enormous pressure on our businesses to deliver profits at all costs. Natural progression of poorly-regulated capitalism means our economy is also being monopolised by a few large companies (banking being a prime example). A small number of large companies grabbing at a finite amount of profit is going to result in extremes of cost-cutting. The result? Poor staff training, worse customer service and more and more examples of unlawful activitiy.

 

The capitalists among us would argue that the market would repair this problem - consumers would bring their business elsewhere. But with only a limited number of competitors consumer choice has dwindled.

 

Before anyone asks Im not in any way qualified to offer a solution, but I am convinced all of our problems can be traced back to the origins of capitalism. What we are experiencing now is the natural evolution of it.

 

I think its very paradoxical the way we as consumers (conciously or not) put massive pressure on business to deliver profits (perhaps not to the extent of the banking industry for example), yet still expect excellent service, and cheap goods. Every time a company makes a penny of profit a consumer looses a penny.

 

Jesus got no idea where all that came from!

[Gez]

the odds of having your money nicked from your house are a lot less than the odds of having them nicked by a bank, IMO.

I think we can consider that to be a fact..

[dave]

Before anyone asks Im not in any way qualified to offer a solution, but I am convinced all of our problems can be traced back to the origins of capitalism. What we are experiencing now is the natural evolution of it.

 

I think that sums it up for me.

 

Capitalism doesn't work; no more than fascism or communism.

 

It could be that it just had a longer life cycle.

 

Personally, and please don't take this the wrong way, but true communism SHOULD work.

 

It's never been practiced, and I understand that human nature, as it is, would fight it. However, if humans knew nothing else, would greed actually factor?

 

It's impossible to tell.

 

Again, it's a bit too deep for this time of the evening, and probably not the forum for such a discussion.

[Castlebest]

We have been a capitalist society since the industrial revolution if not before and it worked fine while people who knew their business were in control i.e. Engineers in charge of Engineering, Shopkeepers in charge of Shops etc.

 

The problems we are now facing started when the financial markets were deregulated and everyone and his dog floated their companies on the stock market, this put accountants in control and the level of service has been sacrificed to make more money.

 

Greed has taken over from pride.

 

pete

[BigNick2]

We have been a capitalist society since the industrial revolution if not before and it worked fine while people who knew their business were in control i.e. Engineers in charge of Engineering, Shopkeepers in charge of Shops etc.

 

The problems we are now facing started when the financial markets were deregulated and everyone and his dog floated their companies on the stock market, this put accountants in control and the level of service has been sacrificed to make more money.

 

Greed has taken over from pride.

 

pete

 

But did capitalism really work fine then? Had the same problems as we do now, social immobillity, massive inequality etc. The only difference now is that we've moved the workhouses to Bangladesh.

[Castlebest]

I disagree, greed is infectious we have infected the third world and far east with modern post deregulation capitalist systems.

 

Yes capitalism works, it recognises human nature and accepts that there will be leaders and followers BUT it has to be run with pride NOT greed and if that is done people will be proud to work for each company and will be proud to do a good job... who is proud of who they work for now?

 

OK this is bound to get some comments if not a visit from CAGbot

 

I have worked in Sri Lanka where during the days of the Empire many plantations run by English people existed, each plantation had its own hospital and school and the workers were cared for even when they were too old or ill to work they were looked after. Since Sri Lanka gained independence and the English have left all of that has gone, the streets are full of kids begging for "school pens" and a European vet would think twice about taking anything to one of the hospitals.

 

I had many long discussions about this very subject with many local friends I made while I was there, a lot of them wish they never got independence.

 

Greed has taken over from pride.

[BigNick2]

Sri Lanka may have benefited from capitalism during the days of the Empire, but, correct me if im wrong, conditions were pretty horrific for the working class in the UK were they not?

 

I do agree with what you say about people taking no pride in their work anymore though. Why is this? Again, I think the answer is capitalism itself. It's rarely economically viable in the 21str century for a family to run a small business, a big source of pride for those involved.

 

However, greed is part of human nature, and capitalism has given those most driven my greed the mechanism to amass wealth.

[BigNick2]

On the subject brilliant Thought of the day in todays independent:

 

'Sell a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity' Karl Marx

 

Genius